HomeMy WebLinkAbout07/15/1991
RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS
Minutes of
Dublin City Council Meeting
Meeting
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A NEAL BLANK CO. FORM NO. 10148
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The regularly scheduled meeting of Dublin City Council was called to order by Mayor Jan
Rozanski at 7:30 P.M. on Monday, July 15, 1991.
Mrs. King, Ms. Maurer, Mayor Rozanski, Mr. Strip, Mr. Sutphen, Mr. Amorose were
present. Mr. Campbell was absent.
Minutes of the June 3 and June 17 meetings were tabled.
Mayor Rozanski: First we have Public Hearing of Ordinance No. 09-91 by title only
please.
Ordinance No. 09-91 - Ordinance for a Change of Zoning on a 2.48 Acre Tract Located
on the West Side of Sawmill Road approximately 750' South of Hard Road (COTA).
Mayor Rozanski: As in all Public Hearings, we will have the opponents and proponents
come forward and sign in, each will have five minutes to state their case on the issue. So
all those proponents for this ordinance, if you will step forward and sign in, please. ---
Opponents, any opponents in the audience that wish to speak tonight, if they will come
forward.
Pat Bowman: Thank you, your Honor, Council Members. The site that COTA has under
contract for the Park and Ride is located on the west side of Sawmill Road between Bright
Road and Hard Road. The proposal was discussed informally at the Planning Commission
all the way back February and finally was heard by the Planning Commission on April 4,
so it has been some time since that meeting. The site itself is nearly 2-1/2 acres, it contains
a single-family residence which was actually constructed very close to Sawmill Road. It has
several out-buildings which will be razed for the Park and Ride. Just two slides very
quickly to orientate you to the site. This is Bright Road, Sawmill Road at the top of the
screen, corner of Bright and Sawmill, and this is the 2-1/2 acre site, there's the residence
on the site, and then the Billingsley Stream winding its way westward through that area of
town. Sawmill Road is the subject site. One more slide from another point of view -
Bright Road at the bottom of the screen, a line of single-family residences, the corner of
Bright and Sawmill Road and the subject site. There's one more property between the
subject site and the stream; this is the single-family home that is currently on site on
Sawmill Road. The proposal, this request is to rezone the property which is now zoned Rl,
Rural Residential to a Planned Commerce District, specifically for a parking lot; no other
uses are requested. Additionally this request is also for a final development plan approval,
that they submitted enough detail that they can actually, with this rezoning, we would
actually approve a final development plan which would allow them to construct the first
phase of their proposal. I am sure the COT A representatives will go into much more detail,
but they've been attempting to acquire a Park and Ride on the Sawmill Road site for
sometime. They expect to offer a rush-hour service to and from downtown via express bus
route; all day parking would be provided for the riders. The first phase is approximately
150 spaces; after several years, if it's successful and they receive a lot of ridership, they
will add 100 more parking spaces to the west of the site. The first phase would also include
a small widening of Sawmill Road in front of the site, essentially a deceleration lane for the
bus to pull off, pick up his passengers, and then get back into the traffic. They've
submitted landscaping buffering around Phase One; when they actually construct the second
phase, they'll build perimeter landscaping all the way around the site. As you'll see,
they've been working very closely with the City of Columbus Traffic Division to control
vehicular access on to Sawmill Road which is a concern for everyone. The Columbus
engineers would permit a full-service curb cut at this point; very possibly with the second
phase, they feel that the volume of traffic in and out of the site may cause them to rearrange
their curb cut and then require a ride-in and ride-out situation after the thing has expanded;
so that is under the jurisdiction of the Columbus engineers and would be done on the phase
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basis. They will certainly fill you in with much more information. Just to outline the staff
viewpoints. Staff supports the application; we believe that the Park and Ride is very much
overdo. The subject parcel is available, it's usable for a Park and Ride, sewer service
which is not available at the present is obviously not needed for the Park and Ride, and it
just makes it a very secure place on Sawmill Road and represents an opportunity for COT A
at this point. We also believe that with the appropriate development standards that actually
have been demonstrated and which they are willing to construct, we believe that it will be
compatible with the future office uses as we've planned for this area. Planning Commission
on the other hand, disagreed, they took a different viewpoint. They voted 6-1 to disapprove
the application. They cited reasons of incompatibility with the future offices, a potential
spot zoning situation, and many of them, even though they claimed to be proponents of
COT A, felt that the immediate area of Bright and Sawmill Road was simply too congested
for even this type of use. That concludes my report.
Tobias Elsass, Attorney at Law, represented Mrs. Abey who is the 100% title owner of this
2-1/2 acre, actually it's 2.59 acres, tract subject to the zoning ordinance. Mrs. Abey is a
senior citizen, she is retired, she is the only owner. Mrs. Abey is currently in contract with
COT A. Our application specifically speaks to zoning for the purposes of fulfilling the
contract with COTA, which is the conditions of the contract with Mrs. Abey. We are
currently on extension. COT A will go into more detail as to the nature of what will be put
in here, they are going to show you slides and show you what's been approved by your
staff. At this point in time, I'd like to reserve half of my time for rebuttal and if I may,
introduce at this time Mike Greene, the Service Director of COT A, who will go through
a demonstration and slide show for you.
Mike Greene: Thank you, Toby. I guess we weren't aware of the five minute limitation
tonight. If possible I'd like to use it, there are two other COT A employees who have
signed in; if possible if I could use their five minutes also to get through the slide show.
Mayor Rozanski: No problem.
Mike Greene: We appreciate it, thank you. My name is Mike Greene, I'm Director of the
Service Development Department at COT A. In addition to myself, we have Craig Bloom
who does a lot of our Park and Ride planning for us; Bob Tanner, who is Director of our
Legal Services Department; Chris Bendinelli of Myers - NBD; and Bob Nichols of Myers -
NBD; who did a lot of the architectural work on this project; and David Bray of Bird &
Bull, Consulting Engineers. I will be deferring to them if we get into technical issues
regarding the landscaping or storm water or any of the other technical side planning issues.
One of the primary responsibilities of the Service Development Department at COT A is to
track growth in Franklin County and determine the most cost effective way of serving that
growth. The population of Sawmill Road Corridor has increased by over 300% since 1980.
This is the fast growing census track within the region, and probably within the entire state.
Focusing service at a Park and Ride is the best method for servicing this type of low-density
suburban development because it eliminates unnecessary bus travel down residential streets
and saves time for commuters, and reduces labor and fuel costs for COT A. You may ask,
is there a demand for this type of service in the Dublin area. In the two market surveys
COTA has done to date in the Sawmill Corridor, approximately 50% of the respondents to
those surveys indicated that they would use a Park and Ride facility located within this
corridor. In an onboard survey of our existing #58 Dublin Express riders, many users
complained about the inadequate Park and Ride facilities. Our existing Dublin Village
Square Park and Ride is at capacity; we currently have an agreement that allows us to use
42 spaces at that site and typically we use all 42 on every weekday. In addition we receive
many phone calls from Dublin area residents asking for increased service to the area.
Existing demographics within the Sawmill Corridor, we feel, are excellent for Park and
Ride usage. The proposed Schottenstein development, multi-family development, which will
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occur further north of this site, we feel will provide a large number of potential customers
for this type of service. Just recently, COTA carried over 900 Dublin area residents to the
Red, White and Boom event. Residents will use our service if it is available. If a Park and
Ride is the best method to provide service, where do you locate the facility? COT A
evaluated 13 possible sites using ODOT, Ohio Department of Transportation, site selection
criteria. In addition, we contacted 5 existing shopping centers about the potential of leasing
space within their lot. The shopping centers were either unable or unwilling to give COT A
a long-term lease which would meet our needs. A map showing the location of these sites
and a list of the shopping center contacts is included in your plan text if you would like to
reference that to see what various sites we've looked at. The site we are bringing before
you tonight scored the highest, using these ODOT criteria. The location is our preferred
alternative because it has high visibility, it's along a dense traveled corridor and can be
easily accessed, has reasonable land costs and development costs, has adequate room for
expansion, and is compatible with surrounding land uses. In addition the site is ideally
located for intercepting downtown-bound work trips heading south on Sawmill Road. The
lot is upstream from the Sawmill/I-270 bottleneck, but not so far north that users will have
to backtrack to reach the facility. We found out in our studies, we've actually tracked the
origins of Park and Ride users and there's very little backtracking to get to these things.
Typically people use them if it's on their way to work; in other words, the users we'll have
for this lot will be folks who are currently driving south on Sawmill Road on their way to
that interchange to head downtown. There's virtually no backtracking from what we've
seen in our research in the past. We believe we've identified an excellent site which will
serve the needs of COT A and Dublin for many years to come. I'd like to take a little bit
of time to briefly discuss the traffic benefits of a Park and Ride lot, and this lot in
particular. The slide you're looking at now compares the 1987 average daily traffic. With
MORPC's projected 2010 average daily traffic for various segments along Sawmill Road,
as you can see there's quite an increase as you head toward the interchange. I should note
that the City of Columbus did a March count for us on the north leg of the Bright/Sawmill
intersection, and it showed that it had gone up by 2,500 cars over that, it is now 26,500,
so just in that 3-year period it had gone up significantly. As can be seen from the slide,
existing traffic volumes and congestion are projected to grow steadily worse. The City of
Columbus does not have the money to upgrade that interchange; they do not have the money
to widen Sawmill Road; the widening of Sawmill Road is not currently on the city's
thoroughfare plan. Even if money were available, decision makers must ask if adding
additional lanes of capacity to Sawmill Road is a cost-effective solution for this problem.
What we're talking about here is a situation where you would need the additional lanes for
one hour in the A.M. peak period and one hour in the P.M. peak period; and I guess there's
a real question of whether that's a good use of taxpayers' dollars, to widen that facility just
for that 1, maybe 1-1/2 hour peak flow. At COT A we believe the solution is to move
people, not just vehicles. Park and Rides are proven means to increase the carrying
capacity of a highway system. It is during the peak hour in the peak direction that
congestion is at its worst. COT A express busses operating from a Park and Ride lot can
significantly reduce traffic volume and congestion at this time of day. As an example, the
City of Columbus did a traffic count in March of '91 which showed that there were 1,371
south-bound vehicles in the peak hour, peak direction. That was between Hard and Bright
Road. Given Phase 1 development of our facility, we could take 150 cars out of this flow
and reduce peak hour volumes by 11 %; and I know you're all probably sitting there
thinking 11 % doesn't sound like much, but in transportation planning, in the field of traffic
engineering, 11 % can be a very significant amount of traffic. It could be the difference
between stop and go traffic and a reasonable level of service on a highway segment. Phase
2 could take 250 cars out of this flow and reduce peak hour volumes by 18%; that 18%
would be calculated over existing volumes out there. From our perspective and I think from
most transportation planning, people who do transportation planning for a living's
perspective, 18% really is a very significant reduction in volumes. A vast majority of these
cars will be travelling southbound on Sawmill Road to the 1-270 interchange. A Park and
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Ride will take cars off of Sawmill Road. The alternative use for this site is an office
building which will attract more traffic to the Sawmill Road area. I would like to briefly
discuss some of the plan elements in our design. Phase 1 of the facility would be, as Pat
mentioned, 150-car Park and Ride lot, with a passenger shelter. We would also provide a
bus deceleration lane to get the bus out of the traffic flow so it wouldn't be interrupting the
traffic flow on Sawmill Road during the pickup and dropoff phase of the operation. We
would probably begin service with two express busses making two inbound trips in the
A.M. and two outbound trips in the P.M. and we would supplement that as demand builds.
When Phase 1 reaches capacity, Phase 2 will add 100 spaces to the lot. I can foresee as
many as 5 inbound and 5 outbound trips per day, probably at about a 15-minute interval;
so you would never have more than about 40 cars leaving this lot at any given time.
That's about the capacity of a bus. So they would be staggered, you wouldn't have 2 or 3
busses all arriving at the same time and all these people desiring to leave at the same time.
Access will operate as shown in the plan. It has been designed based on suggestions from
the City of Dublin and City of Columbus, Division of Traffic Engineering. With the
development of Phase 2, left turns out of the lot will be prohibited. COT A will pursue
obtaining access to Bright Road at the south prior to construction of Phase 2. The design
will provide for safe vehicle access. The plan contains extensive landscaping, meets all
Dublin's zoning requirements, and all drainage specifications. We've included tonight an
additional handout which outlines what our Park and Ride maintenance schedule would be
and we wanted to spell that out for you, make that clear, the fact that our Building and
Grounds Director is willing to be literally on 24-hour call to make sure there is not a
maintenance problem with this lot. Our General Manager has indicated that, as has our
President of our Board, we will do everything within our power to maintain this lot and
keep it in good order. In summary, COTA believes that a Park and Ride will be of great
benefit to the Dublin community. This development can significantly reduce existing and
future congestion problems along Sawmill Road and provide transportation alternative to
Dublin commuters, who up until now have had no other means other than the private auto
to commute to the downtown. I'd be happy to try and address any questions at this point.
A. C. Strip: How much action are you getting out of the Park and Ride in Dublin now?
Mike Greene: Capacity is limited; we're allowed 42 spaces based on our lease agreement
with Dublin Village.
A. C. Strip: So basically we're getting one bus load down and one bus load back?
Mike Greene: In addition to stopping at the Park and Ride, the bus also circulates at Metro
Center and we're also doing some reverse commute, so we're bringing some folks from the
downtown out to work at places like Metro Center and then taking them back in the P.M.
A. C. Strip: How many people would you say you're taking inbound to downtown
Columbus out of Dublin now?
Mike Greene: We're doing about 165 trips a day on the #58 Dublin Express.
A. C. Strip: 165 people a day?
Mike Greene: That's trips. If you assume everyone makes a roundtrip, it's 80 or 90 people
a day.
A. C. Strip: Now one other small question as I'm not sure I understood you correctly.
Did you say you may build a deceleration lane or you would build it?
Mike Greene: We would - it is part of the plan.
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OAYTON E AL BLAf'IK co. FORM NO. 10148
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Dave Amorose: Could you define longterm lease as you made contact with 5 major
shopping centers in the area?
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Mike Greene: Shopping centers, it has been our experience and we've dealt with quite a
few of them around town, are reluctant to enter into a longterm arrangement. By that I
mean 5, 10, 15 years out. They want to have flexibility over the use of their real estate.
If they want to lease the space or develop something on the space, they don't want to have
to worry about breaking an agreement with us, they want to have that kind of flexibility.
So the types of agreements we tend to have tend to be informal agreements that can be
terminated within a matter of 30 to 60 days; oftentimes they involve a dollar a year. We
don't blame developers; if I were a developer that's, I'm sure, how I would go about my
business. I wouldn't want any limitations on how I use my property either.
Dave Amorose: Seems to me that this being something new, that you may wish to try a site
for 5 years rather than invest a substantial amount of money in a 2-1/2 acre parcel that may
end up not working for you, which I am inclined to believe because I live in the area and
I know how backed up Sawmill Road is at the present time; and you stated this evening that
there are no plans in the immediate future for any improvements to Sawmill Road, it is
standing still at the present time at this site. Any turning movements on or off of Sawmill
Road is only going to make the situation worse. I think you're too close to the Interstate
270 to make this site a viable site to reduce any kind of congestion in the area.
.,.
Mike Greene: The access issue was reviewed by Division of Traffic Engineering, City of
Columbus and given the volumes and given the operation of our lot, they believe we have
a safe proposal. They made a number of very significant changes to our proposal to insure
that it would operate in a safe manner.
Dan Sutphen: What guarantees longterm, that this list of Park and Ride maintenance
schedule over, we could all be gone here in 4 years, what does Dublin, if you don't do this
in 4 years and you have a Park and Ride there, what guarantees do we have that somebody
down at your office says "Oh, that's something somebody else did?"
Mike Greene: I may defer to Bob Tanner, our Director of Legal Services.
Bob Tanner: Like any other land use in the community, we're subject to those ordinances,
there are methods to have COT A cut their grass just as any other neighbor, so we would
certainly be subject to those kinds of restrictions. It is our intent to take care of this
property and maintain it to the highest standards, so we feel strongly that you won't have
that problem.
Steve Smith: Would COTA be willing to post an annual performance bond to assure this
stuff gets done?
Bob Tanner: I don't think that's out of the question; I would want to consult the Board of
Trustees on that matter, but that's an unusual request but I'm so comfortable with that kind
of a commitment that I wouldn't foresee a problem with that.
Dave Amorose: Are we discussing the maintenance?
Mayor Rozanski: Before you ask your question, let me bring something to light. This
maintenance schedule you see before you tonight derived out of a meeting that Mr. Elsass
and I had, and Danny, a couple of weeks ago and some of the concerns I had about Park
and Ride's I see throughout the city. And since that meeting, evidently they worked up this
maintenance schedule and presented it to Council tonight. So that's how this came about.
These were some of the concerns that I expressed in our meeting a few weeks ago.
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Dan Sutphen: Basically, the maintenance part of it has been addressed. My question at that
point to Mr. Elsass, the bottom line is, why wasn't this moved up Sawmill Road a little
further closer to the apartments; and this scenario seems to me that we're still at a point that
we're right down where all the traffic is. I eat lunch at a certain restaurant over there 2 or
3 times a week; long before this came to Council, I saw at 12:00 and 1:00, traffic that I
can't even hardly get off of 270 to go north on Sawmill. I guess I'm just worried about the
overall congestion and then putting 42 or 142 more cars right there that close to the
freeway.
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Mike Greene: Let me try and address that. As I mentioned earlier, when we've looked at
the origin of people using these facilities, they tend not to backtrack, so what we try and
do is locate it just far enough away from the choke point, the congestion point which is 1-
270 and Sawmill, far enough north of that but yet not so far north that we preclude a
number of people from using this. What we're hoping is, we not only are intercepting the
folks who are coming south on Sawmill Road, but also folks who currently are coming
across Hard and making that left to get to the interchange. If you locate it north of Hard
Road, it would require them to head north and backtrack to the facility, and it's been our
experience that people just do not backtrack to go to these. If they have to go out of their
way, they tend not to want to use them. So that's one reason why this area was appealing
to us. It was a little bit south of Hard Road which insured that those people who were
currently using Hard, Sawmill and using that to access the interchange would have
reasonably good access to the site, would be able to get to the site easily.
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Denise King: I'm aware of your efforts to try to have a Park and Ride located with a
gasoline station there at Hard Road and Sawmill, and that indeed would have been a much
more preferable location because I think many of your riders come out of the existing
housing, the very intense housing that's in the City of Columbus there on the east side of
Sawmill Road. While I think many of the users of the Park and Ride will come from both
communities, I am curious where further to the east do you have your next Park and Ride
and why wasn't more consideration given to locating a Park and Ride between Sawmill
Road and Smokey Row Road or somewhere in there?
- ,~
Mike Greene: We actually looked at some sites on Hard Road, but in our minds, Sawmill
is a better alternative because more of the people who are coming down Sawmill Road to
get to the interchange to use 270 to go downtown are going by you. Hard Road, you're
intercepting those people who would normally be coming west to go south on Sawmill.
Again it comes down to trying to make it as easy as possible for people to access the lot.
We looked at a number of sites, but we really felt that something in the corridor itself had
the best potential.
Denise King: The other part of my question, where is the next site that you have east of
this proposed site?
Mike Greene: There is a 150-car Park and Ride located at Olentangy and Bethel. There's
a City Rec. Center there and we've entered into an agreement with the City of Columbus
whereby we are allowed to use 150 spaces per weekday on that site.
Denise King: But that's pretty far south, do you have another one up north?
Mike Greene: No.
Denise King: Are you planning on locating another one?
Mike Greene: As the area continues to grow, we wouldn't preclude the possibility of
something further north of the site we're looking at right now. Now this is assuming the
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City of Columbus and Dublin continue to go up into Delaware County. I could see at some
point locating further north. Currently our service area is Franklin County and those
portions of municipalities, such as Dublin, which cross that Franklin County line, so as the
community grows, we will grow with it. I could see at some point having something
located possibly further north. I don't see that happening in the short term but it's a
possibility in the long term.
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Denise King: No, but I'm urging you to consider putting something where the intense
development has taken place, which is east of Dublin in Columbus between Sawmill Road
and 315. In the Smokey Row corridor and the Hard Road area, that's where your customer
base is today, I would think. I urge you to take a look at that and get some of these people
off Sawmill; we'll fill up your Park and Ride with Dublin folks.
.' ."0.
Barbara Maurer: I perceive this as a proposal that asks us to have a long view of things and
to think ahead and plan ahead, and I think this City Council is outstanding for doing that
on other issues; and we, I think, have seen enough of what's going on around the country
to understand what the value is of bus service, of public service, that we have many people
who would benefit enormously economically as well as have a traffic situation that would
benefit from having bus service available. If my understanding is correct, correct me if I'm
wrong, what you showed in your numbers of cars as you come south on Sawmill Road
nearer to 270 is that there is an increased number of cars that are going to pass this spot;
if you put it up north of the shopping center or in the shopping center, you're going to be
north of --, and that smallest number which was 16,000 which you say is 26,000 now,
which means that the increments for the south must be greater than they were. I'm looking
at your high, 2010 figure, 43,000. When David says "Well, gee, it's awfully congested
there", it sounds to me like an argument for having a Park and Ride there. That would
remove cars from Sawmill at the peak hour, it would get cars off of 270, and I guess that
I'm probably one of the few people that hadn't hit 270 at peak traffic hours going from
Dublin east until just recently. Fortunately I managed to slip off on Sawmill Road before
I hit it between Sawmill and the rest of it. And that is already slowing down to 10 miles
an hour which A-type personalities like me can't take. Removing 150 cars from that
eastbound traffic at that time in the morning, I think would be immediately of benefit and
I guess that, I don't know where they're all going to come from. We're going to have
development on the west side of Sawmill, Denise, it seems to me that's going to certainly
contribute to it, it isn't just people in apartments and condominiums who use bus service;
and it makes sense to me to have a good Park and Ride on a main thoroughfare not back
in a development somewhere where it's hard for people to get to. It also makes sense to
me to have it now and have it secured permanently. We all know what has happened in
shopping centers where the management has at the flick of an eye, ended service and then
where are you after the area's developed, there's no empty land left, you can't make a test
for 5 years, because by the end of 5 years, there's nothing left to buy, this is the time to
think about 5, 10, 15, and 20 years from now. And our mode as a Council which tries to
think about what the future's going to look like in Dublin, I think this kind of Park and Ride
is the sort of progressive advance kind of legislation that we should take part in and
participate and support strongly. I noticed that there are a great many other people from
other communities that are on the board of COT A including a couple of council members,
or former council members from other suburbs; and I would think that if we wanted to have
some influence on future decisions, that one of our outstanding community members might
request to be on that board. That's to me, the way you have influence in the future over
something that is a growing, developing service. And certainly if Lou Briggs and Sharon
McCoy, who are both on suburban city councils now or earlier, is something that we ought
to think about suggesting. If we legislate that there is going to be maintenance and that's
a condition of zoning, I think we know from our past experience that that's something that
we can enforce. And we have good code enforcement officers to do that, so I think this is
something that we want to look at as something that we're doing for the future citizens of
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Dublin and not look at it in terms of just the next 5 years.
Dave Amorose: My concerns are the same as what you were explaining. But I don't want
to limit the possible land options that we have in the future. I just think it's very poor
planning to take a small parcel right out of the center of a larger parcel and condemn it
forever to this type of use. Here again, I live in the area, I travel that road several times
every day. You can work numbers any way you want to, I've looked at your numbers on
the screen, I doubt very much if we're picking up 8,000 cars off of Billingsley Road onto
Sawmill Road, between Bright and 270, but you can work numbers any way you want to
work them any hour of the day you want to work them. I'm still very much opposed to this,
I just do not feel that is the site for it; I think you're intercepting the traffic way too late;
if you're trying to take the traffic off of Sawmill Road, you need to intercept the traffic
that's coming from southern Delaware County and northern Franklin County up somewhere
just north of Hard Road. I encourage you to work with possibly the Schottenstein
development, work something in there, or with another major developer in the area. To
make comment on your maintenance schedule, it is, I won't say it is a joke but I would say
that it leaves so many loopholes, that it is actually ridiculous. If you're going to write up
a maintenance contract, it should be a comprehensive grounds care, should start out with
the turf care; you mentioned weekly mowing, you do not state a beginning date, you don't
have an ending date on this; so what do we get, weekly mowing for the month of June, we
don't know. There is no mention of turf fertilization, weed/insect control, no mention of
plant bed care other than the weekly weeding of the plant bed; where's the pruning, where's
the edging, where's the mulching, where's the insect/disease control. It means nothing to
anyone; anyone could get into this contract.
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Mike Greene: This wasn't a contract; this wasn't intended as a contract. This was really
our existing procedures that, for Dublin basically we added the last two paragraphs that said
"This is what we do". If you'd like more, we're willing to give that to you, including 24-
hour notice. We don't have a contract with any of the other landowners, any of the other
municipalities, this is just internal procedure.
'a"
Mayor Rozanski: I'm not going to argue with you on your location due to the fact that
you've done the studies, you've got the figures and the experts to back those up. My
concerns are several though. In the first phase of this, you have a full curb cut you stated,
which I assume then allows for left hand turns out of the Park and Ride lot onto Sawmill
Road, paths that probably would be difficult at certain times of day. Phase 2, when you add
the next 100 spots into this lot, you made mention that ODOT or MORPC may make you
make some changes in that. Could you be more specific?
Mike Greene: We've agreed with Traffic Engineering, City of Columbus, that for Phase
2, we would prohibit left turns out of the site and what we would like to do is pursue, prior
to the need, to open Phase 2 and develop Phase 2 access to Bright Road. We've already
had discussions with the property owner and we think we might be able to do something in
terms of integrating our access with his access point.
Mayor Rozanski: And what if, for some reason, you can't get that access to Bright Road,
that develops differently than we anticipate at this time, and there is no access out to Bright
Road and as you stated, Columbus now allows you not to make left hand turns out of the
lot, what do we do now?
Mike Greene: If it was felt that, and the City of Columbus has indicated they do not want
those left hand turns, we would bargain in good faith with the owner who is immediately
south of our property; and if we felt it was critical to the functioning to the correct
operation of that parcel, it's possible we could go as far as using eminent domain to acquire
a narrow strip of land to provide that access. It would be an exit only on to Bright.
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Mayor Rozanski: I understand that, but before you do the bargaining, if something gets
built there or developed there which does not physically allow you to have that lane, what
do we do?
""" '''l
..
Mike Greene: We're indicating, I guess, that we are going to pursue this immediately; this
is not something we're going to put off for 5 or 10 years. This is something we will do,
if you would like to make the rezoning contingent upon access, we are willing to do that.
Mayor Rozanski: My concerns are, one of my major concerns, the left hand turns out of
there. I see an accident waiting to happen. You've been out there, your people have been
out there, you know how traffic backs up. And the worst thing, from sitting behind this
bench on Tuesday night when I hold Mayor's Court, is for that poor person to come before
me and says "I sat there waiting to make my turn and all of a sudden the traffic stopped and
they waved me on and I made my turn and a car came down and plowed into the side of
me. I couldn't see it because traffic was backed up, the people were nice enough to let me
out and motioned me forward right into oncoming traffic". It's a nightmare, I face it
weekly here and I see the same thing happening there. It's a big concern, I'm sure it is for
you as it is for me.
Mike Greene: Exactly. We don't want to put our users in that situation. We have liability
concerns also, and that is the reason why we think getting access to Bright Road makes
some sense. And for Phase 2, we'd like to pursue that vigorously.
.,.
Mayor Rozanski: Next question, storm water. That's a major issue in that quadrant.
We've had some major problems over there, mostly coming from the other side, Sawmill
draining through Dublin. I see this as possibly, I'm not going to say it is, but possibly an
increase in our problem. How is it being addressed?
Mike Greene: I'd like to defer to the consultant from Bird & Bull, David Bray, if he'd like
to step up. He did all the coordination with your folks and with the City of Columbus, and
at one point, I believe, the Franklin County Engineer's Office.
Mayor Rozanski: Dave, before you make a statement, maybe all I have to do is ask my
engineers if they're satisfied that the storm water would work on this project. If they are,
then I don't need a real explanation from you because you've done it with them and I'll take
their judgment.
Dublin's Engineers stated that they are satisfied.
Mayor Rozanski: Okay, that saves you a lot. I appreciate you putting this letter together,
or your schedule, maintenance, because I was a big critic of that. Everyday for over three
years I drove by the one on Parkway Lane in Hilliard, and I saw the sights of that one, it
wasn't pleasant for many months out of the year; and also, the site wasn't used. For the
years that I drove by it, a good day may have 8 cars in that lot. So I really questioned
whether, that was located close to the outerbelt on a major thoroughfare very similar to
Sawmill, and it didn't function, I think, quite as COTA had wished it had. Second of all,
I would love to know what time of day you're counting your cars at the Dublin Village Park
and Ride because on numerous occasions since this issue has come before us, I go by there.
I go by there every day, and numerous times I pull into that lot and I do count cars. I have
only once counted over 20 cars in that lot and I've counted them anytime from 8:30 in the
morning until 10:00 in the morning; I count them at lunch time; and I've counted them at
4:00 and 5:00 in the evening. And only once I've ever counted more than 20 cars in that
lot. So I'd like to know when you're counting them to come up with the maximum, to be
filled, because I'd like to go by and see that for myself.
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Mike Greene: We prepare a short range transit plan every year at COTA, and part of that
is to go out and count cars in these Park and Rides. We usually try and get two or three
samples and that's the figure that goes in to the utilization column in the table for those Park
and Rides, and that's where I got the number tonight. Our traffic supervisors go out and
do the counts for us. The planning staff is pretty limited at COTA; we can't be driving all
over the county counting cars in Park and Rides. I'm not sure what time of year you were
counting, we tend to have a little heavier usage during the school year. Summer time,
oftentimes people are on vacation; and depending on where you were in the lot, are you
familiar with where the Park and Ride is in the lot, where the pickup point is?
.he..'....
Mayor Rozanski: I should be if I have been in there counting them. You've got it marked
quite well with signs and the location of it behind Sisters'; it's north of Sisters' and it's west
of the cleaners in the shopping center there. There are approximately 42 spots in there, I
would say that.
Mike Greene: Let me address your first question. The Hilliard Park and Ride, that was
an opportunity we had to get a piece of land and bank it basically. The service that we
currently have to Hilliard does not work well from that Park and Ride. It is not designed
to work with that Park and Ride. We are currently looking at our Hilliard service right
now. The problem is, we offer a type of service in Hilliard that circulates in the city and
then comes in. And if you want to encourage people to use a Park and Ride, you're better
off focusing your service at the Park and Ride right from the beginning, rather than
providing circulation within the community. They saw that, I did not do the planning work
on that, that was acquired 5-6 years ago. I'm fairly certain that the people who did the
work on that were looking to that as a future site, as a site that they thought had a lot of
promise. But the way the service is currently configured, it really doesn't have the Park
and Ride in mind in terms of optimizing the use of it.
Dan Sutphen: But what about maintenance at that site. Over the years that it's been there,
it has been nothing more than atrocious, and I drive by it twice a week, three times a week,
maybe five times a week. The grass at one time last year I remember was this tall. It had
flowers coming out of it, the weeds were so tall. And you want to turn around and you
give us a sheet of paper tonight, and you guarantee us this and this is going to happen. I
don't see, in my mind, I don't have any track record of anything, the track record's terrible.
And that's why I asked the question I did. I just want you to know, that's the way I feel
about it. It's what you've not done in the past, at least is what my vote, depending on how
everything is taken tonight, could end up. It's just because of the way you don't take care
of them right now, the ones that are in existence.
Mike Greene: It may be that the, I don't live in that part of the city, I don't ---
Dan Sutphen: Well, I do, I have a plant down there and I have to drive by it. It's right
next to Frisch's. So what if it's next to the railroad tracks. People live there, there's a gas
station across the street --
Mike Greene: I agree completely, it should be maintained. My only point was going to
be that we do have lots in other parts of the city, we have 22 lots currently that I think we
do a very good job of maintaining because I see those on a daily basis. I'm not disagreeing
with you, we've had a problem with that and we brought that to the attention of our
Building and Grounds Director; and he said that he will do something about it, and I believe
he is actively working toward that end.
Mayor Rozanski: Of those 22 lots you have throughout the city, how many of them are lots
that you own and maintain, and how many of them are lots in shopping centers that the
shopping centers, or property owners, contract to have maintained; because like the one
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here in Dublin, you don't maintain it, the property management company maintains it, so
there's a big difference.
Mike Greene: I would have to sit down and literally count them up, I would suspect off
the top of my head --
Mayor Rozanski: 25%,50%?
Mike Greene: I would say 40-50% of those lots are probably informal lease agreements
with existing shopping centers where they have agreed to do all the maintenance.
Mayor Rozanski: Could I obtain a list? I travel throughout the entire city on a regular basis
in my line of work now and I'd like to stop and visit them and see the way they are
maintained. Because that is a big concern of mine, because we stress it highly here in
town, we enforce it highly here in town, and if you are going to come into this site, you are
going to have to live by the same rules everybody else does; and therefore we would like
to know what we're getting ourselves into.
Mike Greene: A couple good sites you might check would be Reynoldsburg and two sites
on High Street. COTA's past may not have been great, but I don't think that's something
that should be held against the organization. There's been limited funds in the past, they've
done whatever they could to develop public transit. That's an area that needs attention and
it's getting attention right now. We've put a lot of money into these things as of late, and
Royal Forest Park and Ride on North High Street is evidence of that. There is a stronger
commitment than there ever has been before.
Dan Sutphen: That's fine but you listed 3 out of 22; and you also just said that you've had
financial problems in the past; I also remember when you had money gloating out the ears,
and maybe this land should have been bought and you should have done something with it
5 years ago when you had the money, rather than worrying about using it right now. I'm
just going to tell you this, that I have seen the one in Hilliard --- Jan, at the meeting that
we had with the lady that owns the property's attorney, he said that morning that he had
been down there and there was only X amount of cars in that lot; I have been looking at it.
That lot's maintained but it's like someone said, it's maintained by the property owner of
the shopping center. I'm going to tell you something, you have a bad track record as far
as maintenance of your own facilities and if somebody doesn't vote in a new levy, then that
leaves us out here with nothing but weeds; and we don't want to have to go take care of it
someday. Maybe that sounds pretty trivial to you but we try to make people take care of
their property; we even fine them sometimes and I don't know if we can fine you, other
than a performance fine, I think that was a good idea that the attorney came up with. I'm
very hesitant at this point.
Bob Tanner: I, too, am a Dublin resident, and by no means would I appreciate driving by
a Park and Ride lot or any other lot that's got high weeds. As I drive by that lot on the
way in the morning, and the Director's office is next door to mine, you can bet he'd hear
about it. That may not be enough of a commitment for you, but it also shows you the
personal concern. This is important to us.
Barbara Maurer: In response to the concerns of the Council, in line with what we have
done with other people requesting zoning, I would suggest that perhaps the applicants and
Dave and whoever would like to sit down and look at a standard and a performance set of
standards like we have standards for other zoning that they agree to receive the zoning.
And if you want pruning and fertilizing and insecticide and herbicide, etc., then that's
something, it seems to me, that we can add to this, and it appears that they're willing to do.
I think in regard to the discussion about levies, I think it a little unfair to blame COT A, who
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'"
~
is held hostage by the taxpayers of Franklin County from time to time. -- If we have
situations where people do not vote levies, we're going to suffer in other areas, too. We're
going to have our own lawn not mowed, we're going to have the school ground lawns not
mowed and not treated. Those things are not, we do not have control over everything; and
we do have a lot of lots in town that do have weeds that we would love to have somebody
cut, but people don't always have the money to keep things up to standard. So I feel that
we ought to look at this as something that we're looking at as a public utility, as a public
service, and as a zoning that, similar to private zoning, we can say, "Okay, if you want to
be in Dublin, how about giving us a commitment that we will do this, this and this", just
as we do for other private zoning; as I'm sure that other suburban communities who will
be asked in the future to have Park and Rides will be grateful to Dublin for setting some
standards that COTA will live up to here. And I'm sure that when they have Park and
Rides in Worthington and other communities, they would ask for the same standards; and
probably their residents will support COTA more and vote for them if they see that; as you
guys have had a bad aesthetic experience driving by all this, it may have affected your
voting on COT A in the past. ---- The question here is whether the Council members who
are concerned about this and whether the applicant would be willing to pursue setting some
other standards for maintenance of the park and development or whatever you call it,
plantings, etc. I gather nobody's complaining about their landscaping plan, it's just the
maintenance that everybody's concerned about at this point.
Dan Sutphen: I don't think it's that, Barbara, 100%, to say that it's just that, I don't think
that's right.
A. C. Strip: I have a lot of other concerns, Barbara --
Barbara Maurer: I'm focusing on that one.
Mayor Rozanski: Is that a question for the proponents?
Barbara Maurer: The question is whether they would be willing to deal with that.
Bob Tanner: We would be willing to sit down with Councilor whomever and negotiate a
maintenance agreement to your satisfaction. I really don't see a problem with that and I
know the Board is behind us in that sense.
A. C. Strip: Very small question. Forget maintenance. Does COTA pay real estate taxes
or are you tax exempt?
Bob Tanner: We are tax exempt for property we own --
A. C. Strip: For this property, you would not pay real estate taxes.
Bob Tanner: Correct.
Mayor Rozanski: We're going to move on to the opponents. Mr. Brown --
.'
Robert Brown: Mr. Mayor, members of Council, staff, my name is Robert J. Brown. I
live at 3888 Inverness Circle and that's the southwest corner of Bright and Sawmill. Being
thoroughly familiar with this area and living in this area, I come before you to urge the
support of P & Z and their ruling on this matter. Some of the things that were said today,
my concern, first of all, I am not an opponent of COTA, definitely there is a need for a
Park and Ride, but the Park and Ride needs to be in the proper place to serve the
community and the area without producing hazards and other conflicts. When we look at
a reduction of 11 % in the traffic hitting Sawmill Road and 270, we are doing that by pulling
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.
,l'r'
that traffic very deeply within an existing, currently highly congested area. And it would
be foolish for us to presume otherwise that it is not going to get more congested with the
development of the 500 acres north and to the west of it, and the access of the
Schottenstein's development center in that area. When we look at the area, this
access/egress to that Park and Ride location, people coming south to get into that Park and
Ride may very well have an access lane to pull off to get into it, but to come out of that
area and to again return to their homes going north again in the evening during the rush
hour traffic would be playing Russian roulette. If we look at the area and access to Bright
Road from that particular plot south through the Milco property on to Bright Road could
very well limit the access from the development of the Milco property into offices which
would be conformance with the existing Bright Road development plan. A road through
that area could very well not be compatible with adjacent land uses as stated with
developers' plans. A road through there could be very, very detrimental. Again to the fact
that this piece of ground will not provide revenue income for Dublin in the form of taxes,
but it will also have a tendency to set a precedence in the development of that particular
segment because it's bounded on the north by the proposed retention pond, it's bounded on
the west by private property and that's one of the goals of the Bright Road development area
was to preserve existing residential properties; and so it's very limited as to how far that
road could go to the west down through the Milco property to even get access to Bright
Road. Bright Road, if you dump 42 cars on to it every time a bus pulls into that parking
lot, that light at Bright Road is trigger activated but it's a very, very short light and so the
movement of traffic off of Bright Road even through that light out on to Sawmill is very
limited. With this particular location, I believe it's a dollar short and many days late, I
think this is something we should have seen quite some time ago and certainly I would hope
that there would be better locations for the Park and Ride in an area out of that highly
congested area and to circumvent some of the problems presented in that manner. Thank
you.
!II"
~.'
Mayor Rozanski: Thank you, Mr. Brown. Any questions or comments for Mr. Brown?
Evidently not. One last question from me, I don't know if Council has anything. Has there
been a study or any work done on engineering, on what effects the road south out of the
Park and Ride on to Bright Road will do to Bright Road, what improvements on Bright
Road will have to be made and improvements to the intersection to handle this traffic?
Anybody answer it.
Mike Greene: In our discussions with Traffic Engineering ---
Mayor Rozanski: which Traffic Engineering?
Mike Greene: City of Columbus
Mayor Rozanski: Okay, Bright Road lies in Dublin, but go ahead.
Mike Greene: --given the number of people that would be returning to the lot and given the
frequency of the busses as they come back, they did not think that was going to be a
significant additional amount of traffic exiting out on to Bright and then using the signal to
make a left out on to Sawmill.
Mayor Rozanski: And so they feel that no upgrade of Bright Road at that intersection
would need to be done?
Mike Greene: In my conversations with them they did not indicate that they thought that
was necessary, we can bring that up again ----
Mayor Rozanski: How about conditions of the road itself with those busses turning on to
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it, the weight of them?
Mike Greene: The busses would never be on Bright Road under any circumstances.
~.
Mayor Rozanski: The busses would use --
....
Mike Greene: Sawmill Road only. The only traffic that you would have would be exiting;
if in fact we establish a lane across Milco' s property, it would be at the far western end of
Milco's property; we've agreed to integrate our use of it with his so he could use it also and
it would strictly be cars exiting for about an hour in the P.M. and that would be the only
use of it. It would be one-way operation.
Denise King: I have a question for the staff. Do you agree with Mr. Brown that the road,
the proposed road from the COT A property south to Bright along the western boundary of
the Milco property, would prohibit the office uses which were approved as part of the
northeast quad plan?
""
Pat Bowman: It would only be personal opinion, prohibit probably not. It would certainly
raise a concern if I were the property owner, how to negotiate that. Obviously without a
use for that piece of property, I would want to hold my options open as wide as I could and
certainly having just a driveway that would just empty on to Bright Road near my site may
cause somebody to look twice before they purchase it. Could it be integrated, that would
probably be the best thing. That was one of the ideas that we kicked around, that the
driveway actually be integrated into the site essentially rather than a two-acre site and four-
acre site, you develop a six-acre site, and under those conditions you might be able to do
a little bit more buffering, provide better access. In a sense have it go right through the
parcels, go right through the middle of the parcel in some sense, and then have a driveway
there for use on both the east and the west sides for office buildings located in that fashion.
The best would be to have it integrated and have them work together rather than have a strip
taken off.
k, H
Denise King: And do you think that is possible?
Pat Bowman: We suggested it and I believe they've talked to Mr. Miller and was unable
to reach an agreement.
Tobias Elsass: If I may help you, we have located on your Bright Road study where this
lot is exactly located if I may approach, I'll show you. (Lot pointed out.)
Barbara Maurer: Can you tell me how the staff responded to Planning & Zoning's concern
that it was spot zoning. I just don't understand what spot zoning is when you're beginning
to develop an area. The first thing you put in is going to be a spot but can you respond to -
Pat Bowman: I don't want to put words in their mouth, probably the thing --
~
Barbara Maurer: Well how would you respond if somebody said "This is spot zoning, we
don't want it".
Pat Bowman: Our response is that we believe that we've built in enough development
standards with the buffering, and the parking lot, landscaping, the possible right in and out
that the development standards, that we've in a sense negotiated, can be consistent with
office. That's our response.
Barbara Maurer: Where would a bus stop not, or Park and Ride, not be spot zoning, in a
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line with 20 other Park and Rides or what?
~
Pat Bowman: That would be the development, that would be the response we'd have; we
didn't look at the spot aspect of it all. It's a really a matter of whether you feel it's
consistent with future planning and future desires in that area and then being a matter of
spot zoning, in my mind.
Mayor Rozanski: Anybody else have any questions? Hearing none, we'll hold this over
for a Third and Final Reading at our next regularly scheduled Council meeting.
Tobias Elsass: May I have my 2-1/2 minutes rebuttal first?
Mayor Rozanski: Go ahead.
Tobias Elsass: After hearing all this, there are just a couple of things on behalf of Mrs.
Abey I think need emphasized. First thing, all these gentlemen here from COTA are public
servants, they work for a subsidiary of the State of Ohio. They're not here trying to put
this on top of this Councilor trying to force something on you; they're here trying to work
with you in the public interest. The whole plan here they have in mind is because there is
a need up here; and there are some things that have been included in some of the package
and information that I have given you, that I think need to be expressed here. Number one,
the majority of the money for this site is federal money that is available to them, it will be
gone mid-1992 I think, it's going to be gone, it isn't going to be there. That's where the
money is coming from. Secondly, there's a concern about the current price and cost ofland
up here. Right now it's within the budget of the federal money and it'll work for that. And
we have a willing buyer, Mrs. Abey's willing to sell the property at a price that's agreeable
with everybody, she's willing to allot for this use, she likes the idea that this is going to be
something for the public and not for commercial business or constructions. We agree from
looking at the things, there is a lot of traffic on Sawmill Road and that this is maybe just
11 % or 18% but you have to start someplace. Yes, maybe down the future, down the road,
there is going to be more traffic; but where are we going to start. If we take 11 % or 18 %
off now and we develop it later, this is just the start that will work. I've worked with these
gentlemen now for a month or two, and I've talked to most of you in person and felt your
concerns and tried to go back to them with what your concerns were, and I told them they
were a terrible landlord; I told them you were going to jump on them tonight about this.
That's why they've come in with this comprehensive plan. To my knowledge there's no
other site in this city, to listen to them, that they've agreed to do this for; and these
gentlemen agree with me that they are upgrading their maintenance plan in the City of
Dublin; they agree with you, they will agree to do this for you and they will agree, from
my talking with them, to work with you to find out what will satisfy you. They are that
strongly committed to this site; they have spent a lot of time and money in developing this
site to try and make it work. And they are in a time bind right now, they've only got until
mid-1992 and then they're out. They've already told me that they're going to have to look
for a site; they have a need up here; they need a site. They have looked at 15 sites, this
has been a four-year project. This isn't a fly-by-night, we're here today, gone tomorrow
type thing, they've spent four years finding this location and finding something that will
work for them. As to spot zoning, this isn't spot zoning in essence, it does fall within the
intended use, yes you have office buildings; it's going to be COTA, it ultimately will be
worked in. They've done their own engineering to retain the water as Council has been
concerned; they've told me that is possible and that they can retain water; they don't use
sewers right now which the City of Dublin's having problems with. They're going to
maintain their maintenance so they don't have overnights or, they don't take any utilities at
the present time. They have talked to the Schottenstein people I understand, and
Schottenstein's have told them it's way down the road as you've seen in my memorandum,
that's '92 or '93. They're interested in getting the federal money now and they're interested
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in taking the traffic off of Sawmill Road now. And Mrs. Abey is very willing to work with
them on this. From listening to your concerns tonight, I personally don't see the difference
between your concerns you have here versus your concerns for any type of development.
I think these are concerns that you're going to have with everybody that comes in and wants
to do anything with this. I think COT A is a much better person to put on this site when
they are at least a public entity that has the whole public interest at mind instead of an
individual. I believe from talking and working with these gentlemen that they will make
this site work, they are flexible, and I'd ask this Council to take into consideration approval
of this zoning request on behalf of COT A and Mrs. Abey, and put the restrictions with it
that you ask; tell us what you wish, what your conditions are. Just don't turn it down; let
us work with you, let's just serve the public interest. Thank you.
Mayor Rozanski: As I stated, we'll hold this over for a Third and Final Reading at our
next regularly scheduled Council Meeting. Next we have Ordinance No. 45-91 for a
Public Hearing.
Ordinance No. 45-91 - Ordinance for a Change of Zoning on a 24.8 Acre Tract Located
on the West Side of Hirth Road approximately 1700' South of Tuttle Road (Dublin
Woods Subdivision)
Mayor Rozanski: As in the other Public Hearing, all the proponents and all the opponents
please step forward and sign in.
Pat Bowman: Your Honor if I may, I just want to include just very general comments for
all three zonings, just to explain to you what this is all about. The Zoning Code specifically
provides in Section 1123, that as soon as practical after annexation that Dublin begin,
initiate a series of steps to include the annexed territory into Dublin classifications. Right
now they're zoned in different classifications within Washington Township. The code
provides for us to administer the code, essentially Washington Township's code until we
actually go through the proceedings to put them within a Dublin Zoning District. That is
what we are doing tonight. It's really a perfunctory, very straight-forward process in this
case. All the effected property owners have been notified, everybody that's getting their
property reclassified into Dublin classification has been notified; a few may be present
tonight, and some did comment at the Planning Commission. This is only the first step, we
took actually the easiest ones first, ones where we have land uses on site and can easily
transfer them to very comparable Dublin zoning districts. It's going to get a little more
difficult, as a matter of fact, as we go on in the process, namely on Avery Road that we feel
there is going to have to be an area plan undertaken actually to determine what some of the
uses, what some of the existing uses as well as vacant land, ought to be rezoned to Dublin.
So with that, let's start with, first the Old Dublin Woods subdivision. About 28 acres,
mostly developed. This is Hirth Road, Tuttle Crossing across the top of the screen, and
Wilcox Road. The 28 acres includes the existing subdivision, all the lots are developed
except one right here on the corner. All large lots, allover an acre, it's zoned RIB in the
township which is essentially 40,000 square feet per acre. We propose that to be zoned Rl
in the Dublin classification. Nearly all of them are the same. I think they permit day-care
centers as a use, the Dublin code does not. The development standards are very similar.
Dublin's side yard is an 8' side yard with a total of 25', the township code provides for an
8' side yard but they have a much larger maximum of 40'. But that notwithstanding, we
feel that the Rl Dublin classification is the most consistent and comparable in this case and
recommend that Council zone it into that classification.
Mayor Rozanski: So the only lot that would play into effect as far as the side yard would
be the one undeveloped lot.
Pat Bowman: Right, as far as development standards, we're a little less stringent, we have
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less permitted uses though than the township does. And I think these are deed-restricted as
well so, where the Dublin code doesn't address the deed-restrictions, even if they are more
stringent would apply.
Mayor Rozanski: Anybody have any questions? It's pretty clear cut. Still Rl, formalities
basically.
Dave Amorose: I just have a question on why we need to do this rezoning if it's annexed,
and if we match up our zoning with Washington Township's zoning, isn't it an automatic
transition?
Pat Bowman: Code doesn't read automatic. Code reads "The Planning Commission will
initiate the process to put it into one or more classifications", on these they're fairly easy.
As I mentioned it's going to get a lot more difficult as we go on, we may not want
necessarily in all cases, the township zoning may not be appropriate for the type of planning
and look that we see in certain areas. We'll probably, I think it's just the best advice, is
just to take it one by one in this case and go through the actual steps. What we could
consider for the future, maybe at some point, both Columbus and city of Westerville for
instance, it is an automatic rural zoning that each of the properties come in with. Then that
makes the obligation on the property owner to initiate the rezoning proceedings to go into
either the Columbus or Westerville zoning district. Some of the issues we even hate to
bring up, some of the industrial property on Avery Road for instance; we don't know
whether that's consistent or not, or whether that ought to be -- it would be preferable to
have them initiate the request than for us. It will actually obligate us to impose a zoning
district which obviously lessens our negotiation and essentially puts our proposal on the
table to be voted yes or no. That may change. Right now, we've got approximately 1700
acres, or 1200 acres, that will have to be rezoned in this process.
..
Dave Amorose: If we're rezoning at this point, do we request or demand that they upgrade
it to meet our zoning requirements, sidewalks, green space dedication or ---
Pat Bowman: No. Where they are nonconforming they will exist as nonconforming uses
until the property is redeveloped.
Mayor Rozanski: Anybody else have any questions? We will hold this over for a Third
and Final Reading at our next regularly scheduled Council meeting. Next, we have
Ordinance No. 46-91 by title only, please
Ordinance No. 46-91- Ordinance for a Change of Zoning on a 14.3 Acre Tract Located
on the West Side of Avery Road and Both Sides of Dan-Sherri Avenue approximately
1100' North of Woerner-Temple Road (Dan Sherri et all
Mayor Rozanski: Proponents and opponents step forward and sign in.
Pat Bowman: Same circumstances causing the rezoning. These lots on Dan-Sherri, let me
point them out very quickly. This is Avery Road, this is Dan-Sherri Avenue. Proposing
to rezone essentially this rectangle. The houses on Avery Road are not specifically part of
the actual Dan-Sherri subdivision, they are 4 separate lots. The subdivision are these lots,
we've included the entire neighborhood, so to speak, in and around Dan-Sherri to be part
of this zoning. Unlike Dublin Woods, these lots are a little bit smaller, they're under an
acre; therefore, we're recommending the R2 classification which requires a minimum of
20,000 square feet per lot. It is zoned RIB in the township, very similar standards. Rather
than the 8' foot side yard and the 40' side yard in the township, Dublin would require an
8' side yard and then a combination of side yards for 20', which is really the only
difference between the two. So in this case, staff s recommendation is to the R2 proposal.
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I was going to probably just touch on briefly what this gentleman will touch on, there was
discussion at the Planning Commission meeting concerning the lots on Avery Road.
Obviously the residents that live there, some of them feel in jeopardy; Avery Road is listed
on our plan as a principle arterial, it has a 60' right-of-way now; in the future it could be
up to 112', five lane facility obviously causing a great deal of impact on the surrounding
residential land, namely those parcels on Avery Road. Some of the neighbors suggested that
we wait and zone it into a future classification, one that would include projected future land
uses on Avery Road. It's our position that since this is really a perfunctory type of rezoning
now, that we zone it to the type of use that is has on it and save the future land use
discussion for an actual Avery Road corridor plan, of which these lots would be included.
So we can touch on that, if need be. That's my report for this rezoning application.
Mayor Rozanski: Any questions for Pat? Steve, Mr. Marcus, you want to come forward,
please.
Steve Marcus: Mr. Mayor, City Council members, I am Steve Marcus. I reside at 6009
Avery Road which is one of the houses at the corner of Dan-Sherri and Avery Road, and
faces Avery Road. I supplied a copy of my comments to the secretary so she wouldn't have
to try to follow me reading this. (Mr. Marcus read his letter at this time.) Thank you.
Mayor Rozanski: Thank you, Mr. Marcus. Any questions for Mr. Marcus.
p'''''
Dan Sutphen: I think all of his points need to be taken into consideration. The area that
Pat touched on that could be touchy down the road, which is literally down Avery Road,
the industrial section or commercial or whatever you want to call it, is there, it's been there
for many, many years, and I think anybody that owns a piece of property on Avery Road
shouldn't, just by Council's vote, just turn it automatically into a commercial base, just
because there might be a commercial lot just to the south of this gentleman or just to the
north, because it's all open ground in that area, or is some sort of commercial to the north
or to the south. I think that before this Council really starts changing the zoning in this area
that it would behoove us, just like we did on the east side of the river, to make an Avery
Road corridor study. I can't vote on that just on a, this is a spot change in a way; it's
different than the ordinance ahead of it because that's 100%, it's off the road, it's off Tuttle
Crossing, it's way back in there unto itself; and I happen to know that everybody back there
wants it that way. This is a little different, this is on a major recognized thoroughfare north
and south and it's no different than any other major rezoning. I think we need to have
some sort of study on it.
.,;--..#
...
Steve Marcus: Thank you making my point of it. After that one of the ------ this is my
first time ever at a City Council meeting so I'm a real neophyte. In addition to the things
you point out, people who live in an area that's clearly residential aren't going to have any
problem selling or deciding to improve or change their property within the context of its
being residential; but those of us on Avery Road right now are all in a very much state of
limbo because there's no recognition of where it's going. And if this ordinance before you
is adopted, then all of a sudden it says something that sort of freezes this in time for quite
some time, because it'll take another action to change this ordinance. And I think just
waiting another, well we were told at the last meeting of the Planning Commission, or the
meeting I attended, that this study would be done this year in the fall, so that's not very far
away. And I really would like to see everything held up until that corridor plan is on the
table and then at that point deal with this.
Dan Sutphen: I can just speak for one person on Council. A lot of times, I'm the guy who
sits up here and says "I hate studies; I hate to spend the money". But this is a newly
annexed area, it's a major thoroughfare, and we know what's there right now, and I think
it needs to be planned fairly for the long term rather than just bring this into Dublin the way
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it's written right now, I don't think that's fair to anybody that's out there.
Steve Marcus: I bought my property with a lot of long term plans and they've been stopped
short. We're just sitting waiting now; we just don't know what to do with it.
.'-'
Barbara Maurer: I wanted to ask Pat a question, even staff here, maybe this will help
answer part of your question. What is the rationale for changing the zoning to Dublin,
similar Dublin zoning at this point. Are we doing it just systematically throughout the
township area that's been annexed?
Pat Bowman responded.
Barbara Maurer: It doesn't seem to me, Mr. Marcus, that we're precluded and none of us
have any prejudice against a future commercial zoning. I guess that I would be loath to
keep this in the old zoning while we wait around for a new study. If we put it in our
comparable zoning, then we can go ahead and enforce whatever is needed there and have
uniformity throughout the City.
Steve Marcus: I appreciate that need. I also appreciate the need, I don't happen to be one
of those, but there are people who are looking now to sell their properties, in some cases
because of children they're raising; in other cases because they've reached a point in their
life that they want out of the area and to divest of the property. And while it's in this
position, those homes are virtually not saleable. And if you zone it as a residential zone on
Avery Road, you're doing something that flies in the face of the fact.
..
Barbara Maurer: It seems to me that if we allow, first place usually when we're doing a
study we're working with the potential developers in the area and getting agreement between
residents and the developer, etc., and I don't see any potential developers yet here. If at
the point at which there is some commercial demand, market for that area to become
commercial, that's the point at which I think we might say "Hey, let's work with the
developers ---"
'"
Steve Marcus: I could buy that if you didn't have in mind to study for the corridor in the
very near future --
Barbara Maurer: Well, I don't know what we have in mind, I don't have anything in my
mind, I'm just looking ---
Steve Marcus: -- if that were five years off or two years off, I'd say great, that's the way
it ought to be. But since this is around the corner maybe two months, three months down
the road, that's the basis of my suggestion that you table this section for that eventuality.
A. C. Strip: Seems to me we were approaching two different issues. One was a
subdivision which is basically compatible with the suggested change; where I think we may
have gone, not wrong but askew, is the addition of those properties facing Avery Road.
Why not just stick with the initial goal that is to zone compatible properties with compatible
zoning, redefine the boundary, leave those properties on Avery Road out of our ordinance
and go on our merry way.
Dan Sutphen: I think that's a good idea.
Steve Marcus: That's the way it started and I got a notice of the proposal, and I said
probably you sent me the notice thinking that I was part of the Dan-Sherri subdivision. So
when I sent that notice, then they revised the proposal, that's why it says "revised" on that
one item, because they then included the Avery Road properties. Probably should have kept
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my mouth shut.
.' .;i
Pat Bowman: I think I could also make the same comment that it puts me in jeopardy
pending the commercial rezoning of the properties on Avery Road. If someone wants to
buy my house, they say "Well, how is that property zoned?", the answer is "Council
couldn't make up its mind, they want to wait and they're considering potential rezoning to
other zoning classifications". So we're not just looking at individual properties individually,
we're trying to set up a process by which we look comprehensively and every citizen, every
property owner has the right to come in and comment.
Dan Sutphen: Okay and that process then is through a study, right? That's not to take this
ordinance as it's written right now and even do anything with it as far as I'm concerned.
I'll just make a motion to table it -- until we see further -- Avery Road study. Any
problem with that?
Pat Bowman: Well, as I recall when it first ---- we left those properties off and the rest of
the people in the subdivision came in and said "why are they exempt, they are the same as
us, this is the same land use, these are the conditions under which we have purchased
property" .
A. C. Strip: The answer is, they're not the same as us, because it happens to front on
Avery Road, which by almost virtual definition is not the same as us, that's why.
Mayor Rozanski: How many properties all told are there, 9?
8"
Adore' Kurtz: ---- I think 16, 12 on --
'64
Mayor Rozanski: How many houses are built in there?
Adore' Kurtz: There are 4 lots not built on.
Mayor Rozanski: 4 lots, so you have 4 on Avery ---
Adore' Kurtz: You have one that's consolidated. Mr. Marcus has consolidated his lot on
Avery Road with a lot that is within Dan-Sherri subdivision and according to our Law
Director continues to remain a lot ----
Mayor Rozanski: How many houses in the Dan-Sherri subdivision, not lots, houses?
Adore' Kurtz: I think 9.
Mayor Rozanski: There are 9 built in there?
Adore' Kurtz: To put some clarification on it, we did originally make the rezoning
application to be just the Dan-Sherri subdivision. At the request of some of the neighbors
and the Planning Commission, especially Mr. Campbell, there was a request that we
incorporate all 4 of the lots that front on Avery Road and that is the way it came back. It
was tabled at the Planning Commission, came back the next month and --. For a point of
information, the change from RIB to R2 doesn't change any of Mr. Marcus's rights. As
a matter of fact, the main thing that it does is, it helps us to protect all the residents from
a potential change to the Washington Township regulations. If the township trustees change
their regulations in any way, we need to enforce those new regulations. If they said you
could in the RIB have a use which we might not consider to be appropriate for that area,
and there are empty lots inside that subdivision, and one of those lots is adjacent to Mr.
Marcus's and owned by him, we would need to enforce their regulations.
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Mayor Rozanski: Explain to me why, maybe we need Steve here, because since it is in the
City of Dublin and not under their jurisdiction, how a change in their ordinance would
affect ground that lies within the city corporation limit.
1Ift.' ...
Pat Bowman: It's in their zoning code; it's zoned RIB.
$" '"
Mayor Rozanski: I understand that ---
Pat Bowman: Our code says that they can exist under the provisions of the township zoning
code until it's put into a Dublin classification.
Terry Foegler: Mr. Mayor, that is state law in effect, that when you annex you enforce the
regulations of the jurisdiction until it's rezoned by the city. Some codes do, as Pat suggests,
put it into a holding zone; ours does not, ours mimics state law which in effect, we enforce
the township regulations until the City takes action to rezone it.
Mayor Rozanski: I would think, maybe I'm wrong, I would think that if the township
changed their zoning laws though, this would be grandfathered because it's no longer in the
township per se. It is, but it falls under the City of Dublin.
A. C. Strip: It's almost like a street dedication. Until we embrace it with our own code,
it is theirs. It's almost like a street, once you dedicate it, then it's ours.
Pat Bowman: The point is, if they change their RIB or got rid of it, we're enforcing a code
that doesn't exist anymore, I don't know how you can ----
A. C. Strip: But once it's ours, then they cannot do that. It's like dedicating a street, once
we take it, it's ours.
Pat Bowman: Then the court would say, why didn't we put it into a Dublin classification
or adopt the RIB ----
A. C. Strip: That's what I'm saying.
Mayor Rozanski: That's what he's saying, Pat, you're both agreeing.
Denise King: I think we have three separate things we're trying to do all at once here at
what is supposed to be just a Public Hearing on a simple zoning change; and I'm not sure
we're going to solve any of them necessarily tonight. Mr. Marcus, I agree with you, the
future of Avery Road is commercial, everybody in Dan-Sherri subdivision knows that,
they've probably known it for 20 years, that Avery Road was a thoroughfare and that
eventually that area would be far more intensely developed than it is right now. Personally,
I don't think it's a big deal one way or the other if we go ahead and put this area into the
Dublin classification, recognizing that, and I would be in favor of Ace's motion, simply
slice out the ones along Avery Road; but I also think we could go ahead and include those
without a great deal of problem because there's been plenty of record made here tonight that
we all recognize as studies being done and a number of us have mentioned that we felt that
the future of A very Road was commercial with suburban office or some such classification
like that, although we want to listen to the public and listen to the study and read it when
it's completed. But also the part of this discussion, I hope that one of the fruits that comes
out of it is, that we take a look at the sections of our code that put us in this pickle, and ask
the staff to develop an ordinance that would take us out of legal limbo with these kinds of
properties and give residents, new residents of the City of Dublin, who choose to annex to
this fine City, the assurances that they would expect to have once they join the City of
Dublin. As far as Dublin being able to enforce Dublin zoning codes in somewhat of an
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expeditious manner, I don't think that people who freshly annex from the township into the
city want to be in the situation we find ourselves in with these properties. And if they
disagree with me, I hope they'll call me up and tell me that.
,~ .
Mayor Rozanski: We have a motion to table this until an Avery Road study is completed.
Is there a second to that motion.
!ik.
A. C. Strip: I'll second it.
Mayor Rozanski: Any discussion on the motion? Hearing none --
Denise King: I'm sorry, is that motion to table the entire rezoning or what?
Dan Sutphen: Everything, just freeze it in time until this study, were you saying it's going
to be completed in three months, no it's going to start in three months ----
Pat Bowman: We'll start in three months. This is going to be as tough a land use issue as
the town has ever faced.
M""l
Dan Sutphen: I know it doesn't happen overnight. The bottom line is if, my other
proposition would be that if we don't want to worry about this, you want to exclude those
two properties that are off of Dan-Sherri, or 4 properties, wherever they are, exclude those,
that's fine with me. I don't think anybody on Avery Road today needs to be locked out of
a zoning and have to come back in there and fight, that's just crazy. All I'm saying is I
think that we should vote on it one way or another; I don't care which way, it doesn't make
any difference to me, I never met this man in my life.
k
A. C. Strip: Dan, we don't have to vote on it at all tonight, it's only the Second Reading;
if we table it, of course, it will come up again. It's immaterial to me, I'll be happy to ----
Dave Amorose: My concern lies with the fact that there are some empty lots in that
subdivision along with some occupied lots, and I'm not terribly familiar with Washington
Township RIB zoning, but I believe there are some permitted uses there that you or I may
not wish to happen next door to our home. And if we table this, I think we're opening up
for the possibility that something may come in and get established in there before we make
a decision on it. So I see no real reason why not to go forward with the rezoning and we
can always, and the intent of this Council is to eventually study and rechange the zoning
along Avery Road.
Dan Sutphen: How is that different though, Dave, than anything, if you flip the paper over
and look at it, I agree with what you're saying and if you exclude those 4 properties on
Avery Road, I agree with you 100%, I'd vote on it tonight if that was the purpose, we're
not supposed to do that tonight. My problem is that it's no different than, we froze things
in time for 18 months on the east side of the river to get a comprehensive study. I don't,
in any length of imagination, think it's going to take 18 months to do Avery Road corridor,
but I think we need one. That's all I'm saying. Yes, I have been driving that road for 27
years, I've known that little subdivision since Dan Sherri built the first house in there, or
whoever it was. And one was built later and after that and after that. That whole area of
Avery Road does need a study and I don't know that by voting tonight or two weeks from
now on it, as a whole, is going to help us out. I think it's going to make that man have to
come back with an attorney and say to this Council, "I want to change it from whatever
Dublin zones it as, to whatever we zone the rest of Avery Road as". Now I don't think
that's fair. We're at a point where we can make a decision one way or another tonight.
You tell me.
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Dave Amorose: Well, I think we're putting some of those homeowners in jeopardy,
whereas we're not putting Mr. Marcus in jeopardy at all. If it's rezoned we've already
stated that we're going to look at it, study it, and possibly make recommendations and
rezone the Avery Road frontage at a later date. We're putting some individuals in jeopardy.
Dan Sutphen: I realize that, and I'll rescind my motion if we do this. We agree that we
exclude his properties. Now if that's not what Joel wants, that's fine, I'll lose it by a vote
of Council. But he's not here tonight and I'm not trying to railroad anything through, I'll
just rescind my motion and wait until August.
A. C. Strip: Irrespect as to how we come out on this, I think if I'm not out of order on
this, I think it might be in order to informally or maybe by resolution perhaps, in view of
what of what we're doing here and what's facing us in the months to come, make a request
to the township trustees to either advise us if they're undertaking any rezoning or to ask
them to resist rezoning since it's really coming into our bailiwick; and I've got substantial
confidence with the township trustees that I would think they would understand our plight
and we've had such a good relationship, I really suspect if we ask them to hold off on
rezoning, or at least inform us.
Mayor Rozanski: It's not rezoning, it would be change of zoning codes.
A. C. Strip: Yes, changes, I used the wrong terminology -- to inform us of any changes,
if we request them to inform us or resist making those changes because of the plight we're
in, I think that request would be honored and would solve our problem. And I think we
have that kind of relationship with the township trustees.
"'" '
),i.
Barbara Maurer: I tend to agree with Dave, I think we should go forward with this. If
there are empty lots in there, they're going to be subject to Washington Township zoning
and I don't think we can put, I don't want to put a moratorium on rezoning here until we
have a study done, because from what I hear Pat trying to say, is it isn't a matter of three
months, it's three months until we start, and we know how long the east side study took,
it took a lot longer than that. We're not precluding them from getting commercial zoning
in the future; they can come in and get it lot by lot by lot, if they want to come in and
rezone it.
A. C. Strip: Are you suggesting the passage of Dan's motion, I can't tell.
Barbara Maurer: No, I'm opposed to the motion, and I'm for going ahead and putting it
in the similar, comparable Dublin zoning at the next meeting.
Pat Bowman: I was just going to make one point. Obviously, we're recommending the R2.
I'd either recommend totally indefinite tabling of the whole rezoning; or allow us enough
time, if the motion is to split those four off, that we be able to notify all the residents of the
subdivision that they're going to be split off. The Planning Commission did the opposite.
They said "Why didn't you include them?" We tabled it, we went back and we included
them and then they voted on that motion. That option, I would just like to make sure that
everybody knows what's being zoned and what's not.
Mayor Rozanski: Couple comments. First of all, I don't think we're putting the residents
of Dan-Sherri in any jeopardy other than what they've been in for all the years those houses
are built. Nothing's changing there, you're still under the same township zoning, same
township rules and regulations as far as developing that property; so therefore I don't see
where it would be developed any differently, those vacant lots than it already has been. So
I don't think we're putting them under any great undo circumstances here of having
something bad go in next to them. I guess I have to agree somewhat with Danny. I can't
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see rezoning the whole piece in one zone.
~.
Dan Sutphen: I don't know what the cost was to do the east side of the river. I don't know
that that's, does it have any bearing on it? I'm just saying that the same issue exists. We
have a low dense area, probability in the next 20 years of being a commercial area with a
higher density area, so why are we going to set the precedent that we'll just take in this,
here again, a spot zoning; right now we'll just go ahead and change this. It was easy until
tonight, and you know that it's not now.
Pat Bowman: Unfortunately what it does as we find out on the east side, the plan has to
be done, there's no doubt about it, but it begs sewer and water questions, and the timing
of the road, and the acquisition of the road, those are big items.
Mayor Rozanski: Bringing this here at this time before Council, if it does anyone thing,
that is to move us along with a study of the area, which is important; because we know this
is going to be a high growth area for the City of Dublin and a very complex one, because
in the past Dublin has been very fortunate when they have annexed ground, to annex large
parcels of vacant ground with little residential or commercial on it. And for the first time
in our history, we're coming across these situations which is going to make it difficult for
our Planning staff and I don't envy you coming up with the solutions and the ideas for this.
We have a motion and we have a second. And that motion is to table this until a study is
done.
Dave Amorose: Danny did not withdraw his motion?
... a
1iiI.0.""
Danny Sutphen: I said I would withdraw it if someone would say to me, enough people
would say to me, that you would go ahead and leave the properties on A very Road exempt,
that's all. And if you don't want to do that, doesn't sound like it to me, it's going to go
down one way or another. At least everybody knows where they stand.
A. C. Strip: I'll exempt it.
Mayor Rozanski: We can turn this down and we can have another motion if so desired.
Mr. A morose, no
Mrs. King, yes
Ms. Maurer, no
Mayor Rozanski, yes
Mr. Strip, yes
Mr. Sutphen, yes
A. C. Strip: Why don't we just let it sit until the next Third Reading and see what we do.
Mayor Rozanski: We still have the Third Reading.
Pat Bowman: The mission certainly presents itself and no matter how it turns out, we know
what we have to do to get the thing done, so it really doesn't over concern ---
Mayor Rozanski: We have one more issue. Ordinance No. 47-91.
Ordinance No. 47-91- Ordinance for a Change of Zoning on a 33.2 Acre Tract Located
on the East and West Sides of A very Road between the Eastern and Western
Extensions of Rings Road (Miller Estates et al.)
Mayor Rozanski: Opponents and proponents. If anybody's here to sign in, please step
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forward. I don't think there's anybody but staff left at Council meetings at this hour.
1fi1'"' "I
Pat Bowman: Same circumstances, annexed property, again an existing subdivision. The
Miller Estate acreage off of A very Road and Cara Court. It goes on back to the
Washington Township Community Center and Kaltenbach Park. We've included St. John's
Lutheran Church. We've really rezoned all of the existing single-family residential, the
park and we've brought it out to include the church and the church's property, which are
permitted uses within that zoning district. Zoning from again RIB in the township. That's
a large lot, 40,000 square feet per acre. Again these lots are a little bit smaller, they're all
under 40,000 so we have recommended the R2 classification which requires a minimum of
20,000 square feet of conforming lot area per dwelling unit.
~"""
Mayor Rozanski: Any questions for Pat?
Denise King: Are there any hidden controversies on this one?
Pat Bowman: No, this is an exact, same circumstances with Planning Commission. Really,
Dan-Sherri properties were the ones discussed. No.
Mayor Rozanski: Hearing none then we'll hold it over for a Third and Final Reading at our
next regularly scheduled Council Meeting. Third Reading Ordinance No. 08-91 by title
only please.
Ordinance No. 08-91- Ordinance Amending Section 1187.09 and 1187.10 of the Dublin
Codified Ordinances to regulate Street Trees and Other Trees on City Property.
...
Mayor Rozanski: There have been changes to this and adjustments?
...olI
Adore' Kurtz: Minor changes. There's a memo which you have in front of you.
Everything in the ordinance stays the same with the exception of two minor changes. The
first one has to do with limiting this portion of the code which says "The City shall have
the right to cause the removal of any dead or diseased trees on private property within the
City or branches of trees on private property which overhang public property when such
trees constitute a hazard to life and property or harbor an epiphytotic disease which
constitutes a potential threat to other trees in the City. I've been trying to practice that
word, I had it outside right, Dave and I were saying how great it was that we both could
pronounce it. We have included also, a definition of the word epiphytotic which has to do
with the sudden commencement of a disease that's like an epidemic in humans. So it would
be a tree epidemic of diseases that would affect trees. Other than that, there aren't really
any other changes, I think we've talked, --- and I think we've answered all the questions,
we've talked with Mr. Amorose and Mr. Schaeffer from the Tree and Landscape
Commission, we've touched base with the people on the Planning and Zoning Commission,
Mary Newcomb from our staff co-signed the memorandum you have in front of you. I
think we've basically touched all the bases and we still have a happy Tree and Landscape
Commission with the ordinance; we feel that we haven't taken the teeth out of the ordinance
and we're pleased with it.
il'i
Dave Amorose: I am in agreement with the amended ordinance at this time. I have no
problem whatsoever with it.
Motion was made and roll call.
Mr. Strip, yes
Mr. Sutphen, yes
Mr. Amorose, yes
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Mrs. King, yes
Ms. Maurer, yes
Mayor Rozanski, yes
~'
Mayor Rozanski: Next we have First Reading of Ordinance No. 48-91 by title only
please.
Ordinance No. 48-91 - Ordinance to Accept the Lowest and Best Bid for the Frantz
Road Sidewalk Project.
Dan Sutphen: I'll introduce it.
Pat Bowman: This is one of the cash capital improvement projects, it's a section of
sidewalk just south of Longbranch and Waterford connecting the Waterford sidewalk to
Rings Road and then on with the bikepath south of that. The low bidder was Columbus
Asphalt and Paving in the amount of $27,780.60. We feel that they have the best bid and
recommend them for the job. The bids are good for 60 days, we didn't set it up as an
emergency but certainly we would appreciate to get that project going, that it be an
emergency at least within the next three readings.
Mayor Rozanski: Any questions or concerns? A motion to treat this as an emergency and
waive the three time reading rule.
A. C. Strip: Second.
Mayor Rozanski: Any discussion on the emergency nature?
11;,,,"
Being none, roll was called.
Mayor Rozanski, yes
Mr. Amorose, yes
Mrs. King, yes
Ms. Maurer, yes
Mr. Strip, yes
Mr. Sutphen, yes
Mayor Rozanski: And on the ordinance. Any further discussion or comments?
Tim Hansley: Marsha points out that Section 3 really can be eliminated in that these dollars
already have been appropriated as Pat pointed out as part of your cash budget, so we would
recommend before you vote, you just eliminate Section 3 and renumber the remaining
sections. Otherwise, it's redundant. There's no harm done if you leave it in but --
A. C. Strip: I move the amendment of the Ordinance by deletion of Section 3.
Motion seconded.
Mayor Rozanski: Any questions or comments on the amendment?
Mrs. King, yes
Ms. Maurer, yes
Mr. Strip, yes
Mr. Sutphen, yes
Mayor Rozanski, yes
Mr. Amorose, yes
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Mayor Rozanski: Any further discussion or comments on the ordinance?
".
Mr. A morose, yes
Mrs. King, yes
Ms. Maurer, yes
Mr. Strip, yes
Mr. Sutphen, yes
Mayor Rozanski, yes
Mayor Rozanski: Ordinance No. 50-91
Ordinance No 50-91 - Ordinance Authorizing the City Manager to Contract with the
Bureau of Worker's Compensation Under Agreement U-69.
Mayor Rozanski: May I have an introduction?
A. C. Strip: I'll introduce it.
,..
Dave Harding: You should have a memo from Dana, subject, what this U-69 agreement
will basically allow the City to do is provide Worker's Compo coverage to volunteers. It's
been brought to our attention that we have a sizable number of volunteers who donate their
labor for a variety of projects. A matter at hand would be in Parks and Recreation, there
were some beautification projects; Sara Andres, who's our Park Horticulturist has estimated
that she will probably utilize about 350 hours of volunteer time this summer. In order to
provide coverage for these individuals, we need to have this U-69 Agreement executed.
This is not new practice, we've done this in the past for both the auxiliary police officers
as well as the community service workers that are brought to the City through Mayor's
Court. What we're asking Council to do is authorize the City Manager to execute U-69
Agreement.
Dan Sutphen made the motion to waive the three time reading rule.
A. C. Strip: I'll second it.
Dave Harding: They are already covered under a separate U-69 Agreement executed earlier.
One point of clarification, those volunteers would be protected right now, however, it is my
understanding they would fall under the City's merit rating system. What we're trying to
do with this is also protect that merit rating system that we have for full time personnel
which has saved the City over 100,000 over the past two years. So I don't think there's any
critical emergency, these people would be covered --- a different vehicle. It's just that we
would like to have them covered under contractual basis before we actually pay a premium,
and protect the merit system that we've got set up for the rest of the City.
Roll was called as follows:
Ms. Maurer, yes
Mr. Strip, yes
Mayor Rozanski, yes
Mr. Sutphen, yes
Mrs. King, yes
Mr. Amorose, yes
Mayor Rozanski: Any further discussion or comments?
Dave Amorose: We are covering Boy Scouts or any kind of group that would volunteer to
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do any type of work for the City. Also, how do we keep track of those individuals, is there
a sign-up sheet when they report to work so that we know that these are on-the-job related
injuries.
~-,~
Dave Harding: Yes, there is a procedure that Dana has set up and he will keep log on a
monthly basis.
Dave Amorose: So if someone's over at the Service Compound crushing glass on a
recycling day, they will be covered by Worker's Compo
Mayor Rozanski: Any other questions.
Mrs. King, yes
Mr. Sutphen, yes
Ms. Maurer, yes
Mr. Strip, yes
Mayor Rozanski, yes
Mr. Amorose, yes
Mayor Rozanski: Ordinance No. 51-91 by title only, please.
Ordinance No. 51-91- Appropriations Amendment for Cable TV Consulting Services.
Mayor Rozanski: Can I have an introduction?
A. C.Strip: I'll introduce it.
Tim Hansley: Again, I refer you to Dana's memo that was in the packet. What we're
recommending at this time is that we contract with the lower of the two proposals that we
received, and that we, in line with both firms that bid recommended a survey to ascertain
what the needs are of the community before the final negotiations commence. What we are
recommending is that we jointly develop the survey document with the chosen consultant
but that we award that to Saperstein, who we've worked with in the past, we think we can
save some of the methodology because they have so much accurate stats on our residential
population. So if we can save money by handling the survey thing pretty much in house
with the on-line consultant. He's done 3 or 4 surveys for us in the past. What this
legislation does tonight then is just appropriation of additional $9,000, so we have a total
of $30,000, I think $21,500 for the consultant and then the additional for the estimated cost
of the survey technique.
A. C. Strip: You're not asking for emergency are you?
Tim Hansley: No, we are not. The other thing I want to point out is that it is our intent
to recover all these costs from the renegotiated franchise. We expect to get, both firms that
we've talked to through the interview process, have assured us that that's the normal course
of action, is to recover that from the franchise holder at the franchise re-award status.
A. C. Strip: The 8,000 or the whole 30,000?
Tim Hansley: The whole 30,000 would be subject to recovery through the bid process, the
franchise award process.
A. C. Strip: Which leads me to my next point. I really read, and by the way Dana did a
good job in his memo, but for the life of me, I'm still not sure I understand what rights the
City has, I know we have certain rights with granting franchises, etc., or what the payback
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is for these studies, or what our leverage is, how much by the throat do we have these
people, what can we do with it. And rather than try to get an explanation tonight, which
I am specifically not asking for, I just wonder if anybody has anything I can read, I'd be
happy to entertain getting something and reading it.
Tim Hansley: I'll give you one real quick answer, we've talked about this a few times
before; Barbara is pretty knowledgeable about it. It used to be we had almost total control,
then the Feds deregulated the company and really took away our control. Either they have
already given us some power back or they're about to and that's one reason we hired the
consultant. I think Barbara pushed for this at the Goal Setting about a year ago, was to
basically kind of study the law for us and let us do as much as we can with the firm,
Warner Cable in this case, so we can get as much back out of them as we possibly can,
especially as relates to whatever needs our community specifically has.
A. C. Strip: Is there any reading material, or has one of the other suburbs done something
successfully that you can get for us?
Tim Hansley: The National League of Cities has a pamphlet, there have been a couple of
good articles in that talk about the latest state of the art as far as what cities can do. Still,
it's less than you could do five or ten years ago.
A. C. Strip: Whatever you can get me I'd appreciate. I can't get a handle on it as much
as I'm trying.
Mayor Rozanski: Since it doesn't need to be treated as an emergency, we'll hold this over
for a Second Reading at our next regularly scheduled Council Meeting. Next we have
Resolution No. 11-91 by title only please.
Resolution No. 11-91 - Resolution Authorizing the City Manager to Execute all
Necessary Documents Regarding any Modification to the Findings and Orders by the
Director of the Ohio EP A on the Standard Connection Ban Imposed on the City of
Dublin, Ohio, and Declaring an Emergency.
Mayor Rozanski: Can I have an introduction, please.
Dan Sutphen: I'll introduce it.
Terry Foegler: Briefly, I believe that Council did receive earlier, approximately a week
ago, when the Mayor received notice from the Executive Director the proposed findings and
orders from the Director of the Ohio EP A. Effectively, what needs to be acted upon at this
time, I think, is give authorization to the City Manager to enter into those agreements,
specifically the waiver of appeal, which is the only aspect of it that we actually sign or
execute. It's fully in accordance with previous discussions and all the information that
Council has been given. If there are any questions, I'll be happy to answer them.
Barbara Maurer: I just want to say for the benefit of the press, is that it basically allows
us to delay, postpone any building of the detention basin for a year, which I think saves us
a bunch of money.
Mayor Rozanski: Any discussions on the emergency nature?
A. C. Strip made the motion and Denise seconded it.
Denise King: I just want to complement the staff and the EP A for establishing a truthful
and cooperative working relationship that allows us to successfully negotiate everything.
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I think it benefits the goals of the Ohio EP A, protects the river, and benefits the City of
Dublin.
Tim Hansley: I think the only thing I would add to that same vein is that the new Director,
who we know because he's been before Council on a couple occasions, that he took the new
job with a pledge to try to work out situations like this, as opposed to just saying "There
it is, that's the book, just do it", he pledged to sit down and try to work out things that are
reasonable. I think in this case he's looked at the public need and looked at the needs of
this community and worked out a compromise that makes sense.
Barbara Maurer: Since we're passing out compliments, I think we ought to compliment
our turtles who have cleaned so much of the inflow out of the system that we don't have
to build this.
Terry Foegler: I think one other party that clearly deserves some recognition for this effort
would be the citizen groups in that area who spent a great deal of time and effort in working
with the EP A and working cooperatively with us and trying to attain this deferral and I
think their input and their involvement was instrumental in obtaining this deferral.
Mayor Rozanski: We have a motion to treat as an emergency and waive the three time
reading rule.
1M;
Mr. Sutphen, yes
Ms. Maurer, yes
Mayor Rozanski, yes
Mr. Amorose, yes
Mrs. King, yes
Mr. Strip, yes
Mayor Rozanski: And on the resolution, any further discussion or comments?
Mr. Strip, yes
Mrs. King, yes
Mr. Amorose, yes
Mayor Rozanski, yes
Ms. Maurer, yes
Mr. Sutphen, yes
Mayor Rozanski: Not on tonight's agenda but having to be added to is Resolution 12-91
by title only please.
Resolution 12-91 - This is a resolution for the crack sealing and applying a surface
course of latex modified asphalt pavement on U.S. Route 33.
Mayor Rozanski: Could I have an introduction to this?
A. C. Strip: I'll introduce it.
Mayor Rozanski: You might be aware that we passed an ordinance like this just recently
for a sum of six thousand and some dollars. There is a correction, it's going to cost us
more. Who's going to handle this?
Paul Willis: The ordinance which you considered two weeks ago and which you passed two
weeks ago was an ordinance offering consent to cooperate on the project; and the estimate
of the cost of the project at that time was, as I reported to you, $6,000. ODOT is acting
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on our behalf and at our request to do this improvement to hold it over as I mentioned a
couple weeks ago until they have completed the design and been able to do more major
reconstruction of U.S. 33. This ordinance simply enables them to come in with the contract
that they're selling very soon; it authorizes Dublin to cooperate financially in the project.
I believe the amount is $9,000.
Mayor Rozanski: 8,000, I believe.
Paul Willis: Okay, it's $8,000. That's Dublin's portion of the project. The project is
scheduled for sale on August 13 and in order to make ODOT feel comfortable, they need
to have this legislation approved and in their hands by July 18. Therefore, we're asking
that it be treated as an emergency.
Mayor Rozanski: Do we have to do something with the other ordinance that we already
passed?
A. C. Strip: I was going to suggest that since I voted yes and I was on the winning side,
I would therefore have the right to bring it up from the table and ask for it to be voted upon
once again. If there's a second to that, we can vote on the previous ordinance, we can then
vote it down with a "no" vote or amend it, and pass it. We have to get rid of the old
ordinance.
Paul Willis: The two ordinances serve two different functions. The first one was what is
commonly called a consent ordinance. This is simply an ordinance which says Dublin will
agree to participate financially. It did not actually encumber any money for the use on this
project.
Discussion.
Mayor Rozanski: Any further discussion or comments? Then I would entertain a motion
we treat this as an emergency and waive the three time reading rule.
A. C. Strip: I would move to waive the three time reading rule and pass as emergency
legislation.
Barbara Maurer: Second
Mayor Rozanski: Any discussion or comments on the emergency nature. Hearing none --
Mr. Sutphen, yes
Ms. Maurer, yes
Mayor Rozanski, yes
Mr. Amorose, yes
Mrs. King, yes
Mr. Strip, yes
Mayor Rozanski: And on the resolution. Any further discussion or comments? Hearing
none -
Mr. Strip, yes
Mrs. King, yes
Mr. Amorose, yes
Mayor Rozanski, yes
Ms. Maurer, yes
Mr. Sutphen, yes
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Mayor Rozanski: Tim, is there an appropriate resolution drawn up?
Tim Hansley: That will be put into our format for you to sign. We got that late Monday
morning.
Mayor Rozanski: That finishes the formal part of our agenda tonight. Under "Others",
the first thing we have for discussion is regarding the West Bank Sewer Option and the five-
year capital improvement plan.
Terry Foegler: I believe Tim added this to the agenda for the purpose of, because Council
had special meeting last Monday evening at which both consultants who had looked at the
two alternatives had been present and responded to additional questions. Part of our input
at this point is to see what additional things Council needs from staff in this regard. I do
have a couple things that you can take a look at with you that does look at some items that
were discussed at the last meeting and that would be the context of a five-year program that
reserved or allocated $16 million dollars to see what that might be like so that at least those
that could be authorized and proceeded with could do so clearly in an adopted CIP; and then
simply those that would be on the bubble would wait until the adopted alternative were
selected. But I think Tim's purpose in putting this on the agenda was mainly for Council
to officially look at the issue and decide if or how they wish to proceed at this time on the
issue of the sewer options.
~'
Mayor Rozanski: I will personally admit that I am not quite sure how we proceed from
here. I don't know the wishes of Council, I don't know their desires and I know there were
some things discussed and talked about at our special meeting; unfortunately there were only
4 of us there and I think the other 3 need to be brought up-to-date on some of the
information prior to moving on. Denise had brought up an alternative possibility that was
addressed and some preliminary work was going to be looked into. Terry, where do we
stand on that?
\\,,,,
Denise King: Just a comment on that. There was very good coverage in the press about
the possibility of another alternative and including an opportunity urging citizens to contact
us if they had any concerns about the option of putting a gravity sewer along the west bank.
I didn't get any phone calls; I'm curious if anyone else got any objections.
Tim Hansley: I received one phone call to my office from somebody who had participated
in the previous lawsuit. They were adamant against that idea; in fact, I urged them to give
you a call so that you could understand why. I tried to explain that were problems with one
at the front door, whether it's the shallow or the deep, and he is very set in his opinion and
I assume by now he would have called you. ---- He didn't want to hear what was going to
be done, he just said it will not be done along the river, he was very adamant. But that was
just one phone call.
Denise King: And we have somebody else who says it won't be done along the road, and
somebody else says it can't be done deep tunnel.
Tim Hansley: I very politely pointed out the problems of all the options.
Denise King: I hope we will continue to pursue that option. I urge Dave and Ace, I'm not
sure you were at that special Council meeting where we discussed that, but it's really a
question of looking at an option that's always been on the table, for the last 20 years; it
was put aside because of some concerns by some politicians in Columbus who lived along
the river a long time ago; I don't know who those people are, I don't know if they're still
alive, I don't know if they live in Dublin. We are looking for a dependable low cost
option; and I raise the question, a reasonably priced option. If the deep tunnel is so
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expensive and if it precludes us from having a lot of other capital improvements that this
City needs and there's support for, then we need to look at alternatives. If you are as gun-
shy as I am about the dependability forever of more pump stations, then if there is a modest
cost gravity option which is also very dependable, and if we could build that option and it
would be along the river, shouldn't we take a good close, hard look at it and find out if
there are either engineering reasons why it can't be done or overwhelming public
opposition; I can tell you from the time in between, there is not overwhelming public
opposition. There may well be a lot of support.
~
Barbara Maurer: Could I just suggest the next step in this? The reason that Columbus did
not pursue the river option, Steve, correct me if I'm wrong, is that there was a group of
people who brought a lawsuit in to the Ohio Supreme Court and Terry read the summary
of that from the study that was done around '86, and the summary said that the court said
that Columbus could not condemn property for a use that was not for the benefit of
Columbus citizens. In other words, it would be for Dublin citizens. I think the question
is then, can we condemn the property for the use of Dublin citizens, and does that suit
preclude us from pursuing the river option ourselves. And would it have to be Columbus
that does the condemnation or could we do it, is it an option? Would the person who said
he would sue and it would stop it, is there room for negotiation there, if it's a difference
between building a $5 million gravity sewer on the river and paying a half million to replant
trees and put back up piers and docks, and 15 to 20 million for the tunnel or a force main
that has potential future problems and lots of maintenance, then I guess that we would want
to talk to the person, find out whether we have room for negotiation. But the first thing I
think we ought to do is ask Steve to take another look at that lawsuit to see whether it has
the same effect on us that it would have had on Columbus.
,.,
...
A. C. Strip: There's a lot of rumors about whether Columbus granted easements, and in
fact even if they did, whether or not they had the authority to grant those easements. And
I just wonder, Steve, if it wouldn't be appropriate to shortcut it maybe by setting up a
meeting between you and whoever else from the City, whether it's the Mayor or somebody
else, with maybe the Columbus City Attorney and find out where we stand. My point I'm
leading to is I think we're coming to the point where pretty soon have to bring closure, not
rush, I'm not suggesting that. But we have to bring closure to this entire decision for a
variety of reasons. One, it is making us look as if we really can't make decisions, which
is not really the case but they're starting to get that underlying current throughout the
community. Too much study sometimes makes us look ambivalent but we're not right now.
Secondly, too many other projects are going to be driven by the decision as to which way
we're going to go on this. Until we make decision and bring closure, we really can't move
in with a couple other projects. I wouldn't suggest we make a target date but I think we
really have to accelerate some of our activity a little bit on this.
Steve Smith: A couple comments. Directing it to the first question, if Council is seriously
considering a third alternative, that being the along the river route, then what we need to
do is to give you an opinion as to the applicability of the old decision by the Supreme Court
as it would apply to today's conditions in addition to the parties. In other words, Dublin
may have rights Columbus attempted to exert before and obviously the entire situation has
changed with respect to serving the area. So whether or not that opinion would still direct
our course is up in the air at this moment. I would suggest to you, there's been so many
changes in the entire Columbus populace in the service to those lines, that it may carry
different weight. In addition, as Denise commented, some of those principals are no longer
with us, some of them are deceased, one was obviously Judge Britt was involved in it
because he lived along there; however, there are still other people there that may choose
to challenge it. But as I recall reading the preliminary work on that opinion, I think one
of the reasons the initiative failed, the reason they weren't allowed to go that route, was that
there wasn't a lot of engineering ground work laid for the necessity of that sewer at that
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...
time. If it's Council's desire and if it's the charge of Council, I will be happy, give me 30
days, to do a number of things; 1, give you our opinion as to the applicability of that old
decision; 2, meet with Mr. O'Brien's staff to determine what position if he can tell me, they
would take with respect to Dublin acting to condemn property and take that route; 3, to give
you an overall view of what I think our success may be; if that's your charge, but I need
at least a month to do that.
... "
Mayor Rozanski: The ex-Service Director for City of Columbus, Mr. Bob Parkinson, is
here. Would you like to comment on this, Bob, as a courtesy to us?
... '
Bob Parkinson: I think I could make a couple comments. One, if we go back to the court
case and I'm not an attorney, but my recollection of it is that one of the reasons for the
decision from what I was told in my discussions with the City Attorney at the time, no
longer exists. And that is that mention was made that Columbus had no place to serve, I
think the real question became that Columbus had no property within the City of Columbus
up to the north. That was changed not too long after the court decision and all of the city-
owned property was annexed. So if you look at the map now you'll find the corporation
limit actually does run both sides of the river. It was the City Attorney's opinion at that
particular time that that alone would have allowed them to proceed. There were probably
in my estimation, more political decisions with regard to that than anything else, and those
decisions got made before I was Service Director but I was a party to, I was there, I was
aware of them and it was all taking place at about the time that I did become Service
Director. And I would say the discussion was probably correct; it was probably more
political decisions than anything else. But I think that what stopped it from moving it was
the fact that the city did not have property, and now that they do, I know the City Attorney
had told me at the time, later on that we would have the ability to actually appropriate the
land if we wanted to at this particular time. So I think probably you could, whether
political decision or not, is a different situation.
\ih,
Barbara Maurer: If we could take a look at the projects, and I thought we would have that
maybe in front of us tonight, our list, do we have that?
Dan Sutphen: I think it's a good thought, what you just said, but I personally feel if we
don't have this decided, there are other hard decisions down the road that we can't, if we
make decisions on three or four, that's just something else that is tying our hands. We have
to have the clear picture on what sewer we are going with, and I'm afraid if we said, "Let's
do my favorite road over there on the other side of the river", -- then maybe something
else, nothing is going to be done in the right priority.
Barbara Maurer: It seems to me our top priorities, regardless of whether we do a $5
million sewer or a $16 million sewer that ----
Dan Sutphen: It's in your mind one thing, in my mind is different.
Barbara Maurer: --what I'm asking is that we try to make a consensus determination of what
those top priorities are, we can get going on them. And then once we make a
determination on which of the three options we're going to use, that we can then do the
next, maybe we just make a list of priorities that we can all agree on.
Mayor Rozanski: First of all, Barbara asked Steve a series of questions and Ace did, too.
And Ace has made a proposal to us, is it the desire of Council to have Steve proceed with
his suggestions?
Dan Sutphen: Yes
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Mayor Rozanski: I see a nod of sufficient number of heads, Steve, I think you have that
directive. Second of all, Terry, are you going to have that priority list for us?
.,. 'Il
Terry Foegler: I have, again we had three members left in that meeting the other night, the
issue was raised about the possibility of looking at what a capital program would be like,
assuming the most expensive option. I do have that scenario for you available. The other
question I would ask though since you're in this discussion, is that during that 30-day period
where legal implications are being looked at, is there anything that you would like looked
at in terms of the technical feasibility or preliminary cost estimates, should we retain
engineering services to do that?
Mayor Rozanski: You said you were going to pull the information together --
Terry Foegler: I'm sure that will not be valid in terms of giving you meaningful cost
information because the design parameters would be totally different. It's clear at this point
that Columbus is doing the deep tunnel; therefore, the elevations that you have to work
with, if you remember from the discussion last Monday, from your beginning point and
starting point are totally different, the amount of fall that you have to work with is totally
different. You need a new independent look if you're going to seriously consider this
option.
Mayor Rozanski: I would hesitate to order a study for that until we find out legally whether
we could do it or not.
p-'.
Denise King: I share your lack of enthusiasm for delaying this and I share your lack of
enthusiasm for doing more studies except for the fact that I think this is a unique situation.
Normally, most of us, maybe all of us, feel that staff has led us to the best alternative. In
this case I feel that staff has led us to one less alternative than we need to seriously
consider. And if we're concerned about making the very best decision on this critical issue
and if we're concerned about doing it in as timely a manner as possible, then we need to
get busy looking at the engineering aspects of this very old alternative, that for whatever
reasons was left out of the equation, in order to not delay the decision any longer.
,..
Mayor Rozanski: How long would it take to write a perspective for the engineering.
Terry Foegler: I think that scope of services could be drafted very quickly. --- A scope
of services could be drafted in a day or less. It's a matter of how formalized you want the
RFP process to get. Just by scope of comparison, the original Woolpert study, which was
about a 30-day study or less, was about $7,000. The somewhat more comprehensive MS
study which was about 60 days, I think was $13,000 to $14,000. It's a matter of what level
you want it looked at, just in terms of general technical feasibility with very preliminary
costs, that can be done pretty quickly.
Denise King: I was referring to the same level of technical expertise and feasibility as the
other two alternatives so that we have a level playing field for the three alternatives.
Mayor Rozanski: --that's 30 days, Terry?
Terry Foegler: To retain a consultant and do the analysis to give answer to those questions,
yes, I believe it is.
Mayor Rozanski: So that would be the same amount of time that Steve is looking at, so
they could run concurrent.
Terry Foegler: I would say that we would be looking at trying to get something for the
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second Council meeting in August.
~,
Tim Hansley: One thing I would mention that to be an obvious fact without Terry and I
even talking about it, and that's that, it would be fairly obvious that we would probably hire
either Woolpert or MS to do it because they've already got, both of those firms have the
background, would make no sense, I don't think, to get a third or forth firm would just add
to the selection process. Especially if we look at having both of them quote us a not-to-
exceed price on the scope that we could write in a day or two, we could then quickly choose
one of the two firms to do the job for us and hopefully even before your next meeting since
you have three weeks, is it theoretically possibly we could have a fairly quick answer.
Especially if it's negative, especially if they say "For five reasons, it just can't happen"
because of the depths or whatever. I think a "no" answer, you'll get done real fast.
..
Mayor Rozanski: I don't think this Council would have any objections to using either one
of the two firms that, they've both done fine work for in the past and we seem satisfied.
Does Council want to take that route?
Discussion.
Tim Hansley: Yes, and the sense being that this may be a compromise between the real-
cheap-hardly-any study to the full-blow, probably something that's going to be in the $8,000
to $12,000 range. If we can take that out of previously appropriated consultant money, if
that's the head shakes we get, that's what we would need to do.
"""C"""!1
Mayor Rozanski: Okay, Steve's going to look into the legal aspect of it, you need 30 days,
you're going to write a perspective, not to exceed, and get a study done from one of the two
firms you feel comfortable with.
a, .to
Tim Hansley: Yes, either at your next meeting if we're real lucky or the one following
that.
Mayor Rozanski: Okay, Council agreed with that so that's your directive.
11/'"
Terry Foegler: Can I give just one bit of insight here as you're looking at this so that we're
clear? The first page, as you notice, which identifies an alternate one on a five-year major
project capital improvement program, you'll notice includes a deep tunnel option with a $16
million West Branch alternative. Under that scenario there's a series of projects that
couldn't be funded. If you look at those that are funded, most of them are givens or have
to be funded except for one or two, the sewage detention basin which is simply shifted to
a '92 construction time frame; water tower improvements; West Branch sewer; Tuller Road
is kept on; 161 improvements both Franklin to Dale and the larger are kept on; Muirfield
Connector is a done deal. Under this scenario, the Scioto Bridge, no additional work is
done, just reflects the acquisition you've already made, Dublin Village lighting which is
already let; the Northeast Quad acquisition which is already done, are the only projects that
remain on there. You can see from the chart on the following page that shows you what
portion of that West Branch Sewer Improvement would be of your total 5-year program for
major projects. In fact if you add that with the detention basin, if that were required, that's
over 50% of your program for the next five years. The following page which showed the
other alternative which includes the least capital cost alternative which is the MS estimate
on the force main, again basically leaves in all the projects except for the Coffman
Municipal Park road acquisition, and that is within the budget. Those are just concepts for
consideration to show you impacts, and again if you look at the chart on the following page,
then it shows you the kind of projects and the distribution of funds that takes place in that
scenano.
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r'.~
A. C. Strip: Question, did we by some official resolution or vote, Terry, and I don't
recall, reallocate a timeline on some of these projects, for example, items 8, 9, and 10 are
indicated as deferred, but going to second alternative 2 item, for example, let's take the
Civic Center Recreation, etc., item 8, that's kicked clear back to 1995 ---
Terry Foegler: Council has taken no action with regard to the 5-year CIP in terms of
distribution, or products.
A. C. Strip: I didn't think so. Where are these years coming from then.
Terry Foegler: Recognize there is a policy that you, in the presentation that we've given
you, and this in both alternatives violates that, and that is that you not over-encumber the
debt in the early years. If you look at the bottom line, even under alternative 2, you've got
7 - 8, $8 million dollars the first three years and only 5 and 4 in the last 4 years. So my
guess is, when your Finance Director looks at this plan, they're going to say that's far too
aggressive and you're going to need to find ways to defer additional projects into later
years. There's an effort there to try to equalize, we haven't done it here, this is simply a
rough concept more looking at the impacts of different kinds of deferrals and suggests the
way they might be distributed. Council has made no decision regarding timing of projects
or inclusions of projects. This list of 15 projects is still the projects that staff initially
identified.
A. C. Strip: Who's recommendation is this then, as far as setting forth the years in which
these projects will be done?
.
Terry Foegler: This is not a staff recommendation. This is to show you impacts based on
the earlier plan that we had submitted of the two sewer programs with their current
estimates.
A. C. Strip: Let me just take anyone at random. Just take the rec. center again, using that
as an example because it's 1995. Who plugged it into 1995?
Terry Foegler: I plugged it into 1995.
A. C. Strip: I understand, but I kept hearing staff wasn't recommending, I'm trying to
figure out, somebody plugged it in, who's the guilty party.
Terry Foegler: I'm the guilty party. The reason staff hasn't recommended this, is because
it hasn't been reviewed and signed off by Finance and Tim. But if you'll notice on the
others, the Sewage Retention Basin has a confirmed date, the water tower is by virtue of
imminent problems, the West Branch has a required date, Tuller has an imminent safety
problem, 161 has an imminent capacity problem, Muirfield Connector is let, Scioto Bridge
is spent, Dublin Village lighting is done, Northeast Quad is done, there's not a lot of
discretion there.
A. C. Strip: That part is okay, but you also have 1992, '93,'94. I'm trying to figure out
who, and I got the answer, plugged it in to '95, because some of these things may need to
be revisited.
Barbara Maurer: Could I suggest, I think that this is based on our, remember when we set
up our list of what the criteria were by which we would judge how to prioritize capital
improvement and the safety and health and traffic issues were at the top, and that's what
we've got at the top. We've got the traffic issues, 161, Tuller Road, Muirfield Connector,
are the traffic issues; we've got the health issues, the water tower and the lift-station to get
enough water pressure, and the sewage detention basin. I have a question about that, are
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we sure we're going to have to build this at some time. We have deferred it to 1992
because we now have a one-year deferral.
Terry Foegler: Your new Orders and Findings says "Dublin shall start construction July
1, 1992", unless at some point we can make the case that it's not needed. Right now the
order is that it shall be built. We would clearly not recommend that you remove it from
the five-year program until it is clear and obvious that we do not have to build it.
Tim Hansley: And one obvious way to get it not deferred, but eliminated is to begin a
construction of a $16 million or five-and-a-half million dollar sewer improvement.
Barbara Maurer: Then when you take that out, we could apply it down to one of these
things that we've had to defer.
A. C. Strip: Not necessarily, I don't think you can take it out at that point until EPA tells
you you're not going to require it.
Tim Hansley: We would only recommend you take it off your budgeted list when it's
officially eliminated.
Barbara Maurer: When the EPA says, "You don't have to build it because you're building
this other".
Tim Hansley: Exactly.
Dave Amorose: - no microphone -- we see some work begin on Tuller Road, you noticed
here in 1991 you have $500,000 in construction ---
iiloi" oil
Terry Foegler: And no money has been appropriated, nothing's been authorized. That's
why the discussion has been, Council should select those projects, at least this has been the
assignment of some Council, people select those projects that they feel are imminent
regardless of what sewer option is selected. Tuller Road, all the engineering is done,
estimated assessments are being done, we're having the appraisals looked at again because
of their timeliness at this point, we've retained a consultant for that, but it's mainly driven
by Council choosing it as a definite go, and appropriating accordingly.
Barbara Maurer: That's what my argument was, is that, assume the worst scenario that we
would have in terms of finances, not necessarily the worst in terms of results, but finances,
that we might have to do, $16 million, and let's decide what projects we would do
regardless of whether is $16 million one or the $5 million one and get them started. It
seems to me it's not Terry who plugged in those things at that date, we did because of our
criteria for safety, health, traffic measures as being the top things you measure by.
A. C. Strip: Terry just told you he plugged it in, and you're going to tell me, we plugged
it in.
Barbara Maurer: But he did it based on our criteria that we established when we lined up
all those projects.
A. C. Strip: He plugged it in based on sensible and prudent financial planning but not on
our criteria.
Barbara Maurer: As to what should be first priority -- why isn't Coffman, the Community
Center over here and the water tower booster station and Tuller Road and S.R. 161,
Muirfield Connector, five years from now? It's because we said traffic is top priority and
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DAYT N LEGAL BLANK co. FORM NO. 10148
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19
health is top priority. That's where it came from.
A. C. Strip: Barbara, I don't want to debate with you. We'll accept your answer. Okay,
you're absolutely right.
Mayor Rozanski: Go back to Dave's question, if we appropriated the money, the capital
improvement program for Tuller Road today, what is the likelihood of any construction
beginning in the near future?
Terry Foegler: The engineering is complete, the largest single lead time item will be the,
once you appropriate money and say it is time to proceed, will be the electric company
taking their electric poles, moving them and installing their electric underground.
Mayor Rozanski: Are they working on the engineering on that now?
Terry Foegler: Our understanding is, they have done the engineering on that.
Mayor Rozanski: It's done?
Terry Foegler: Yes. We have been pushing that for over a year.
Dave Amorose: I think it's a real safety issue. This Council's publicly said how hazardous
that road is, the road continues to deteriorate at a rapid rate and I think we definitely need
to get this thing underway.
~.
Barbara Maurer: If we take alternate 1, we can approve the things in white except for West
Branch Sewer but we have to get rid of $629,500 down there. We have to eliminate a
project that's going to cost that somewhere. Am I correct?
1iiIi, (
Terry Foegler: That number is the number that exceeds what we had to find as an
affordable limit within the five-year program that you've seen.
Barbara Maurer: So we could go ahead and approve going forward with everything on here
except we have to get rid of $630,000.
A. C. Strip: Are we talking about doing this and actually voting on it tonight?
Barbara Maurer: Yes.
A. C. Strip: Is that everybody's intention? I'mjust wondering, does everybody else intend
to vote on it and pass it tonight?
Mayor Rozanski: I'm not, just receiving it tonight.
Barbara Maurer: Well, this is what we've had.
Mayor Rozanski: We have something new tonight, it's not what we had.
Barbara Maurer: We've had these priorities in front of us, but I won't urge you to vote
tonight, I just say, let's look for the $630,000 that we have to get rid of, and say what is
it we will not do?
A. C. Strip: By the way, I'm not opposed to voting on it tonight. But if you are, I'd look
forward to a two or three-hour discussion. That's why I asked the question.
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DAYT N LEGAL BLANK CO. FORM NO. 10148
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Barbara Maurer: The first step before we do anything, we have to get rid of something.
We'll have to say we won't do something on the white line.
~.
Mayor Rozanski: We don't have an ordinance on the agenda, for one thing.
.. "
A. C. Strip: That's why I asked the question, I'm just wondering if, in fact, I'm not
looking for more work but I think there's a whole lot of meat in here. What we have here
is the future of the City for the next four or five years. I just don't want to blunder.
Tim Hansley: Just a point for clarification, you actually do have an ordinance that's been
tabled that adopts the five-year plan, of which you have a variety of ways to do that, but
technically you do have an ordinance that you've had, well, it's on the table. Somebody
could choose to take it off the table, and adopt it with this as the attached list.
Mayor Rozanski: I don't understand that, it hasn't been advertised that it was going to be
heard tonight, and if you're going to spend --
Tim Hansley: As a matter of fact, you already had a Public Hearing on the five-year plan.
Mayor Rozanski: I know. But if you're going to go out and spend $33 million of the
public's money, I think you better advertise it and let the public know you're going to do
it tonight or--
".. "
Tim Hansley: The night you said you were going to do it, when you had the Public
Hearing, nobody showed up as you mayor may not --
'iIli.- :4
Mayor Rozanski: That's fine. But I'm not willing and I don't think most of these Council
people are willing to take that step here as elected public officials to spend $33 million
without the public knowing about it.
Barbara Maurer: Could we make a commitment to ourselves that at the next meeting we
could do that? ---- We're going to be waiting around for 30 days --
Mayor Rozanski: Who's going to be here the next meeting?
Barbara Maurer: I will be here.
Mayor Rozanski: Denise, will you be here the next Council meeting?
Denise King: I will be on my once-a-year vacation.
Dan Sutphen: I probably will be working, and the next meeting I'm going to be on
vacation.
Mayor Rozanski: Do we want to attack this in a regular Council meeting or do we want
to attack it in special meeting?
f#'
Discussion.
Mayor Rozanski: Is it Council's desire then to attack this at the next Council meeting and
make a formal decision.
Barbara Maurer: It's okay with me unless you want to do it next Monday.
A. C. Strip: I'll attack it anytime; my only point was, let's give it adequate time.
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Mayor Rozanski: Denise, since you're not going to be here, would you please have your
thoughts on that to us prior so we can have your input?
Myra: Where do you want this on the agenda?
Mayor Rozanski: Under "Others".
Barbara Maurer: If we have a tabled ordinance, we could put it out and pull it out and
make it a --
Mayor Rozanski: Let's do it under "Others" so that we can get through the agenda, those
people who come here for business can get out before we go into it, we might be here until
1 or 2 0' clock in the morning and you have people waiting here for a minor issue.
Barbara Maurer: All I'm suggesting is that we pull off the tabled ordinance.
Mayor Rozanski: Next we have sanitary sewer plan for the Northeast Planning Area.
'"
Pat Bowman: Your Honor, we can make this as fast as anybody would want to, it's an
issue we took before the Planning Commission last Thursday. One of the reasons for the
quick turnaround is that we felt that we've had adequate public review, we've had a number
of meetings. Even for that meeting we sent out over 150 notices and we had one comment
before the Planning Commission. The Planning Commission recommended approval of our
recommendation unanimously with the conditions listed in the staff report. We are prepared
to go into detail as much as Council would care, essentially we're recommending a
combination gravity force main system for the Northeast Quadrant. This is a slight
refinement of the community plan in which we, at that time, recommended that a force main
would more than likely be necessary to adequately service that quadrant. We went into the
whole thing, we used R. D. Zande which is the consultant for the property owners, we
requested that they furnish us with a great deal information looking at a number of
alternatives, going back and actually revisiting as many alternatives as we could, we looked
specifically at three. We went into it with three criteria, one, we had to serve as much of
the whole area as possible, we wanted to serve the entire quadrant, we found that the
gravity system, the pure gravity system fell short doing that, the pipe just does not get deep
enough, it falls short well of Summit View, and only about 1/3-2/3 of the quadrant gets
service. We wanted to cause the least disruption as possible, we heard loud and clear that
the folks were very concerned about blasting, we wanted to minimize that. The gravity
sewers, to service entirely by gravity, those sewer lines would be to get where they had to
go which is approximately Tonti Drive that they would have to be at least 30' deep in some
areas and we wanted the whole proposal to be reasonably cost effective. Just outlining that
as the criteria, Steve Mack is here to actually go into detail, but essentially our proposal is
a gravity line up to Hard Road extended, the gravity line then would service all the light-
colored areas that you see on the maps and in the report. The force main would be located
just south of Summit View Drive on the Homewood property. That would service,
essentially the lines in the dark section would flow by gravity to the lift station, and the area
would be force, the actually forcing, would be from the lift station down to the gravity line
at Hard Road extended. We clearly feel that this is the best option, that it accomplishes all
the goals that we set out to before the study. We ran it by a number of folks, including at
a civic review one Saturday morning with the residents of Riverside Drive. Obviously a
lot of concerns, but I think, although nobody clearly wants to say that this is a good idea,
I think generally that it appeared to me, that we at least have most people's consent, that
this option looks to be the most feasible and most practical and it would be worthy of final
engineering, obviously with the intent of going back and addressing specific problems, what
does the pump station look like, where do the lines specifically go. Other residents
wondered how they would be serviced, they requested we look comprehensively to make
Iiii;- d
#"
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DAYT N LEGAL BLANK CO. FORM NO. 10148
Reln
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19
sure that all areas get service equally and fairly. That we believe we can do. Steve, to turn
it over to you very quickly, you can explain just a little bit more about the recommendations
...
Steve Mack: I'm going to be hopefully very brief. We talked about this on several
occasions, you've seen slides and pictures and plans. I'd like to point out just a couple of
items. As a matter of general policy, the staff would not be bringing an engineering
question before Council. That's our function to do that type of thing. However, during
both the Planning and Zoning and the Council discussions of the rezoning, specific
engineering issues were raised, concerns were raised. As a result of that, the applicant
agreed to do further study to, especially with the sanitary sewer, to explore some other
option. So we felt that it was appropriate to come back to Council and Planning and Zoning
and to give you the benefit of those studies, to give you the opportunity to review and to
approve. As Pat indicated, last Thursday we made a presentation to Planning and Zoning.
They, after about an hour's worth of discussion and questions and this type of thing, they
approved it unanimously. I've got some slides that, what I'm going to do is, I'm going to
cut to the close, I'll give you my close. If you want I can back up and show the slides, if
not we can go right to questions. As part of our study, we took Zande's proposal, let Jim
O'lausen do an independent review. Jim is with Civil Engineering Associates, he does a
lot of our plan review for us, he's a disinterested third party as far as this goes; in fact his
bent is for gravity sewers. So his proclivity is to not put a force main type of sewer in if
there is any chance to avoid such a thing. After studying it, his recommendation was that
it was a sound proposal with the circumstances we have, with the commitment that Council
has to service the Northeast Quadrant area, that really the force main was the only option
we have. One of the benefits to the study that Zande performed was that the original
proposal showed two force mains, this proposal comes back shows we can do it with only
one force main. So we can service the same area with half the mechanicals, the
mechanicals will be in one location rather than two. It is staff's recommendation and it was
picked and approved by Planning and Zoning last week that we move ahead with the
proposal that is in your report. Like I said, I can back up and show slides and we can talk
really at any length you want to. I don't want to exhaust you with it and be redundant. If
not, I'd be glad to answer any questions. Bob Parkinson's here from Zande, the engineering
firm, to answer any questions you might have as well.
~.
Mayor Rozanski: Bob, is there anything you'd like to add?
Bob Parkinson: Just very briefly and Steve would normally have covered this but we have
built in a number of redundancies and safety factors in this lift station and force main. They
came out of some discussions with Dublin staff and we agreed and we have gone over it
with our client. We have added, enlarged the pumps; we've added extra pumps; we've
enlarged the holding tank; we've added extra holding tanks; we've gone to, of course,
standby generation; we've gone to something which I don't think there are very many lift
stations have, and that is telemetering which would signal back to any place that Dublin
wants. Any type of failure whether it be a pump, electric, or whatever, just the fact that
it happened, the generator which we would be installing would have automatic throw-over
in the event of a failure of electricity. We have agreed to, one of the questions was the
housing of the pump station, we have agreed, or suggested, the owner has agreed, staff has
basically I think, I'm not trying to put words in their mouth, but I believe said they kind
of prefer it, we will probably locate the lift station in kind of a guard house as an entrance
to the subdivision, which you probably go by one all the time down on Dublin Road where
the Parade of Homes was at Scioto Run. That guard house is actually a lift station, it's not
a guard house. Many people wonder why it's there, why they spent the money, but that's
the sewer lift station because that subdivision operates off of a lift station. The owner, the
developer has agreed to do a similar type arrangement for this one. So we've built in a lot
of things that we think will provide some real protection and hopefully address the concern
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July 15, 1991
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11"+
that we recognize that Dublin had. Obviously this came out of the zoning when there was
suggested that we might go two or three hundred feet up the hill and save the lift station.
We have researched that, we think, as carefully as we can within what we had to work
with, and we don't think that is a practical solution to it environmentally. We're going to
have to do a lot of blasting, we're going to be running close to houses. We know that
people don't want to, we think our final solution which, one of the things about it, we
rerouted the gravity sewer to go up 257 and consequently we're able to serve a lot more
of the property by gravity than we originally would have, including all of the Tonti
development area. That will now be able to be served by gravity. So primarily the area
that will be served with the lift station for quite some time will be the Homewood
Development, and when and if the rest of the area develops, ---
.,.'.';!if
Mayor Rozanski: Bob, a couple questions. First of all, the developer would pay for the
initial construction of the pump station, am I correct?
Bob Parkinson: Yes, it depends on how much oversizing we build into it. The developer
would build and pay for, and that is something that I'm not involved, I know the attorneys
have been talking to Dublin, but the developer would be building and paying for the part
to serve his particular development. This would be developed in phases --
Mayor Rozanski: Let me address it differently and it might clarify it. The developer would
be responsible for the design of it.
Bob Parkinson: Yes.
k,.__._.,i,
Mayor Rozanski: Okay. Would Dublin's Maintenance Department have any say so in
involvement in that design as far as possibly the brand of pumps and equipment due to the
fact that we are going to be the ones who are going to have to service it after it's built, after
we accept it. And our people are familiar with servicing those pumps and equipment, and
the availability of parts. I would like to think that we would be working with equipment
that we're familiar with and we have access to say perhaps a strange brand of pump which
was a couple thousand dollars cheaper but we have to airship parts in from Seattle,
Washington.
Bob Parkinson: That was discussed. We have discussed with staff, we will be setting up
a performance specification which staff will review and as part of that, we will be able to
write in, if that is their desire; and that was discussed, that was a concern that was raised
by Paul early on, and we have no problem with that and the owner has no problem with
that.
Terry Foegler: Mr. Mayor, if I could add one comment to that, you'll notice in the staff
recommendation that one of the conditions is that the City by virtue of approving the
concept, is making no statement of guarantee to the level at which the City might
participate. That's a separate discussion that takes place down the line that Council will
review and consider on its own merits. It is simply the concept that is before you tonight.
Bob Parkinson: Thanks, Terry, I wasn't sure how to say that.
Denise King: In our packets, there is a page of comments from residents, Sewer Meeting,
July 5. I'm not asking for a reiteration here tonight but I thought the residents asked some
good questions, and I'd like to know what the answers are and perhaps I could just call you
Thursday and be briefed.
Steve Mack: Most of the questions, I think, that were raised in those meetings, we have
addressed subsequently in the design; so I think we, we have met with the citizens and I
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;W'1
think they're all happy campers right now, by and large. I think we had agreed to study
and do a coordinated design and installation. They were concerned about having their
properties torn up several times; and we pretty much committed to saying "Yes, we'll study
the water, we'll study --" we're going to study these in segments, but when we go into
construction, we're going to try to build water and sewer and utilities and all these things
as much as possible so there's only one disruption.
.",.---;i
Denise King: One other question, I think it was in here somewhere, whether the residents
along the river would actually be able to tap into the proposed sewer line. If we are
concerned about water quality, do we need to be concerned about giving our residents who
have septic systems that close to the river, an opportunity as a matter of public policy, to
encourage them to connect to the sewer.
Steve Mack: We discussed this Thursday night. Neither option, neither the gravity system
or force main system would allow them to flow by gravity into, they're downhill. In either
system, either proposal, the gravity or the force main, they would have the option either
individually or collectively to pump up and into the system. Technologically it's a little
more difficult with a force main, though it can be done. But they have that option, whether
the City would encourage it, I think that would have to be a decision of possibly Council,
just to encourage that to happen, but the availability would be there.
A. C. Strip: Are you both, however, Denise and Steve, both talking about doing that at the
homeowner's expense?
....
Steve Mack: My understanding is that usually it's the homeowner's option ----
~-_,_~_4f
Denise King: I was talking about it at the homeowner's expense, but that, I wanted to raise
the issue with Council that if leaching septic systems is an issue in Shawnee Hills, it's
probably also an issue anyplace else along the river. And we should as a matter of public
policy be concerned about that if it is in fact a legitimate issue and if it is in fact a
legitimate health issue, then while we're talking about this, we might want to look at ways
to provide a reasonably priced inducement to get people who have septic systems too near
to the river, tap into this sewer. And I wanted to make sure as long as we're talking about
design, that it was possible to allow them to tap in, whether it's wholly at their own expense
or with some inducement.
Steve Mack: We can design tap in points and various types of things like that.
Dave Amorose: Well, I think that Saturday morning, I thought the message was loud and
clear that they opted not to be disturbed, the majority of them, maybe all of them said "I
would rather maintain my on-site sewer treatment whether an airraid or some type of septic
system in good order than to have the gravity sewer line come down the riverbank. "
Steve Mack: They did show a lack of interest in pumping into the system but I think it
would be wise planning to make that available or to be ready for that to happen.
pt- .~
Dave Amorose: Sure, but is it not good engineering, the fact that one can operate an on-
site sewer treatment plant properly?
Steve Mack: Properly maintained, yes.
Dave Amorose: That's right, because the Franklin County Board of Health would regulate
that; of course you may have $15 or $20 a year fee right now for that type of an inspection.
Steve Mack: I think the problem or the situation with private systems is not the technology,
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it's the maintenance.
.,
Dave Amorose: My one main concern is, of course I do understand that the main routing
is preliminary, but we need to really take into consideration when we do the design and
construction of this line, that we do put it at an elevation and a location that makes it
relatively accessible to the areas outside the rezoned area to tap in and utilize the sewer.
For one of the people along Bright Road, I hope that you take into consideration, the
elevations better be proper and the location proper so that it's not going to be horribly
expensive to shoot the gravity sewer down and tap in.
Steve Mack: As best we can, we will. What we're really, the laws of gravity are at play
here, we have an elevation at the end that we have to meet. The gravity line that we're
talking about, we have a minimum slope on the line so there are some constraints that we
have. But as best we can, collectively the consultant, the staff, and the independent person
who does our review, are going to try to design and build a system that will service the area
as inexpensively and as practically as it gets.
Dave Amorose: Remember that, in engineering, we don't want to just take this line and
B-line it right for the 500 and some acres, we want to take into consideration ---
Steve Mack: The concept is to take it up Riverside Drive and then --
Dave Amorose: --- service the entire area.
pt.
A. C. Strip: Steve, if the law of gravity is a problem, you bring us an ordinance, we'll
amend the law.
~
Mayor Rozanski: I get the impression from Bob, in fact his head was nodding up and
down, he would like Council to approve this study, this concept tonight. I don't know how
the rest of Council feels about it, I have a little bit of problem of doing that tonight without
it being advertised. It's not a resolution, it's not an ordinance, it doesn't need to be
advertised.
Terry Foegler: Well we indicated we did not get that to the agenda, we apologize for that.
It was however, every property owner was notified for the Planning Commission meeting.
Planning Commission meeting, it was notified that Council would be taking action on this
at the next meeting. It has undergone extensive public scrutiny with public meetings
devoted directly to this subject by the entire Northeast Quad as well as those directly
affected on Riverside, as well as another public review at the Planning Commission meeting
last night. Staff s concern is that the applicant twice has had to apply for extensions because
they need to pursue detailed construction drawings. The Hard Road extension is the first
major aspect of those construction improvements. Without some sense of which way to
proceed on sewer, it's holding up all those construction drawings and we think the public
benefit, especially getting something going within this construction season, before the City
for approval in that regard, is extremely high priority. Realize this concept just reaffirms
what's already been adopted in the plans, really nothing's being amended. We felt that the
applicant needed this confidence however to proceed, and he felt they needed it, to proceed
with the detailed construction drawing for this system.
Mayor Rozanski: Going back to your first statement. You said it was mentioned at
Planning and Zoning meeting that this was coming to Council at the next meeting?
Terry Foegler: That is my recollection.
Mayor Rozanski: Now what meeting was that??
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Mayor Rozanski: Steve, did you have an understanding of that?
Steve Mack: We mentioned the Council meeting, I'm not sure we mentioned this one. Just
maybe as a point, I talked with, the people that were here earlier for the COT A issue are
also the same people that are interested in this, and I talked to them before the meeting.
We talked about it being on the agenda and they were very comfortable in leaving and not
staying around to discuss it. They came here for --
Mayor Rozanski: I agree with you, but most of those people live up by Sawmill area
whereas this is down on Riverside Drive, in extreme different corners of that quadrant. I
don't know if that would hold valid, that same group of people.
Steve Mack: At the Planning and Zoning meeting, there was one person who spoke in
opposition and I'm not sure how many people were there, a fairly good turnout, and there
was one person who spoke against it, it was his choice. It's covered in the report. He
would like to locate the line two to three hundred feet east and try to service the area by
gravity. Unfortunately, if you're going to run liquid uphill, you have to pump it.
Barbara Maurer made a motion.
Denise King: Second.
Mayor Rozanski: Any discussion or comments.
A. C. Strip: Anybody have a problem with it.
~:-,
Mayor Rozanski: I do have a problem. I don't have a problem with the concept and the
plan and I would approve it other than the fact that I personally feel that we should have had
it advertised in the paper. I have a problem with that, Bob, and that's the only problem I
have. You understand? I'll put my stamp on it that I approve it but I feel that we owe it
to the public to make them aware that we are going to go ahead and approve it.
A. C. Strip: I was hoping we could get a little more conversation, I'm trying to get a feel
for how others feel about it. I'm like you, but if enough people are uncomfortable with the
unadvertised thing, then I'd vote against it if, I don't want to be a fish swimming upstream
if everybody's ready to vote on it favorably. I think the issue is not are we going to
approve it, the issue is today or next. So with a sense of Council, developers can proceed,
at his risk, but he can proceed.
Bob Parkinson: I can't speak for my client. He has to be the one to say whether I start
spending his money or not, so I don't really know what he would do. I would hope that
he would say "Okay, fine, go ahead" but bear in mind, in two or three weeks we can spend
a lot of money on design, and if suddenly somebody says "No"; I think we had thought
we're looking at a concept, the lift station force main was included in the zoning, it was
included in the plans, was submitted as part of the zoning, and really we started out to
investigate, really could we build a sewer two to three hundred foot east, which was
proposed at the 11th hour of the zoning; and that's what we started out doing, and we went
a lot further than was what we thought we were going to do as part of the request of
Council at that time, that we go back and study Mr. Stoychef s request that we look at the
line two to three hundred foot east; so we kind of felt that it was part of the zoning, it's in
the plans, it was part of the PUD approved plan, the lift station force main. And obviously,
we'll live with whatever you do; I cannot promise that he'll let me go ahead, I really can't.
But we'll live with it and I'll go back and try to explain to him that I sensed a positive vote
but the concern was the notice and if he will let me go ahead, we'll get going.
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Mayor Rozanski: Let's call the question and see, it's kind of 50-50 here.
p, ,~
Mr. Strip, yes
Mr. Amorose, no
Mayor Rozanski, Bob, I'm voting no only because I feel the technicality --
Mr. Sutphen, I'm voting because it's not a technicality, just my principle, and that's no.
Mrs. King, yes
Ms. Maurer, yes
A. C. Strip: Motion fails.
Mayor Rozanski: Sorry, Bob. But I think-
Denise King: You'll know how I would have voted next week.
Mayor Rozanski: I think you know the consensus of Council on it.
Bob Parkinson: I'll explain that. Thank you very much.
Mayor Rozanski: I appreciate it.
Pat Bowman: Mayor, next meeting we will advertise it and just have a two-cent second
presentation.
..
Mayor Rozanski: Yes. Absolutely, as quick as possible. Reports From Council
Committees. No reports from Council committees. Comments From Staff.
~...
Janet Jordan reported on problems with fireworks display.
Mayor Rozanski: Anything else?
Pat Bowman: We are about ready to go to bid on a project, a sidewalk project, actually it's
a boardwalk project for pedestrians between Shawan Falls and Franz Road. Because of just
some of the nature of that project, I asked Mary Newcomb to just explain it a little bit to
you with the expectation that you will see a contract within the next meeting or so.
Mary Newcomb: There are a couple of constraints on this site that Pat mentioned, the north
side of Bridge Street between Franz, Post and Shawan Falls Drive. You're probably all
aware there's a very steep slope there, it's within the limited access right-of-way and for
those reasons, it would be difficult to put in a standard concrete sidewalk due to the amount
of fill and grading that you would have to do. Another constraint is the south fork of Indian
Run is located near the site, just a little bit north and the grading to put in a concrete
sidewalk would be in the floodway, and we certainly wouldn't want to do that. So what I'm
proposing for this section of Bridge Street is the construction of a wooden boardwalk which
would be 9' in width with an inside dimension of 8', which would be the same as the
bikepath; and it would have a railing on both sides. This has been sent to ODOT for their
approval; we do have their approval and the permit from them to go ahead with the project;
and the plans are right now to have the bid opening in early August and have the First
Reading of the ordinance at the second August meeting.
Denise King: I tried to ride my bike one time to go pick up my car at ProCare, and I had
to go along there. And Mary's right, you have to have a boardwalk, otherwise you are in
the creek. And it's the area right near Monford's office and the entrance into the Post
Office; and it would be great if you could get that built. I'm not sure though that we need
a handrail; oh, make sure those slats are what, no more than 6"?
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Mary Newcomb: 4".
P---""II
Denise King: But I don't know that we need a railing along both sides the entire length,
though. We just need it where it's real close to the creek. I'm concerned about having it
look kind of unsightly if you have more railing than you need. Because certainly the area
between Boy Scout Park, that lovely entrance feature, part of that area along there --
.----_Ii'
Mary Newcomb: That area is flat enough that we will put a concrete sidewalk in there.
And the boardwalk really won't start until there's a very large culvert. It will start at that
point and go east.
Mayor Rozanski: Have you looked at the possibility, maybe you have, I'm not aware of
it, of using the existing road back there that services those houses, putting it along there and
then coming up to 161?
Mary Newcomb: We looked at that. A problem with that is I think that if people are
traveling along the sidewalk, the existing sidewalk that was put in last year, they just might
not go that route.
n?: - no microphone - I guess my feeling, and Mary and I talked about it and certainly
it's going to cost a little bit more. But the other option is to put it way back on the property
and I think that it's just not going to get the use for even that expense. Some of that would
have to be boardwalked, too, to cross the stream. If we're going to spend any amount of
funds, let's get it out where it's visible.
..'
;lo;, .,;
Mayor Rozanski: I understand bringing it to Shawan Falls, if you're heading west you're
going to run it along 161 until you get past the creek where that road starts up, and then
running it over to the road. I would believe people would use it; if you're coming west,
that's the path that would lead you. Once you've used it once, you would know; easy
enough to put a sign there at that road --
Mary Newcomb: Another problem with that location, there is a ditch there and that would
either have to be enclosed or relocated to put a sidewalk in that location.
Mayor Rozanski: Couldn't you use that road? The road is basically only to serve two
houses, couldn't the road be marked out as the pathway, instead of duplicating the facility,
putting a walkway along side a road that isn't used?
Mayor Rozanski: That road goes about halfway that length.
Dan Sutphen: It's not, that's Post Road - I think you need to refer that to the Service
Committee and let us make a decision on that, unless you want to get it done right now.
Oh, is that what you want to do, you want to vote on it tonight?
Mary Newcomb: No.
Mayor Rozanski: I was just thinking that's a possible solution, to use something that's
already in place and not have to duplicate.
Pat Bowman: Yes, that's exactly what we want to avoid; we just didn't want to come back
with a contractor in tow ready to build it and have the question asked. If there is a major
concern about this proposal, by all means let's talk it out now before we get somebody to
come m.
Dave Amorose: --- if it's that far north, it's so removed I don't believe people will use
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it as frequently as if it were right along ---
~ "
Pat Bowman: It pretty much would be a "V", you would go over to the road and then right
back to 161, so in my mind, the extra cost of running it right along the road in a visible
location makes the money better spent.
;b,
Mayor Rozanski: The only other question I've got is the sidewalks we're building are what,
5' wide?
Mary Newcomb: Typically 5'.
Mayor Rozanski: Then why are we jumping up to 8' wide for this stretch?
Mary Newcomb: Because you're not going to be able to move off the sidewalk onto the
grass; if you are walking along the boardwalk, and one side's going to be elevated in some
spots up to 5' above the grade, and it will give you the opportunity if you're walking across
it and two people are riding their bicycles toward you, you'll have that room to get out of
the way.
Discussion.
f!6"- 'I>
Terry Foegler: Just as a notification to Council, we did have a discussion a meeting or two
ago regarding the extension of the Cramer Creek sewer and Council informally indicated
a dollar amount that, be a peak figure that they would consider contributing. We will be
bringing formal legislation to you at your next meeting, will be working with the City
Attorney to draft a satisfactory agreement. The private sector has come with the remaining
portion of that Cramer Creek extension to Wilcox. And what we want to do in the next two
to three-week period is get a satisfactory recoupment agreement put together that we can
bring back before you for your first August meeting.
-
COUNCIL ROUNDTABLE
Barbara Maurer - passed.
A. C. Strip - passed.
.fil'i", '.'~
Dan Sutphen: I do, but I will let it slide as long as I get a chance to tell the City Manager
it needs to be taken care of and it gets taken care of -- and I need to tell Council that also -
- I'm going to bring one thing up. --- But this is a classic example, tonight, we get the
Ohio Department of Transportation on Route 33 sitting on our desk and none of you were
here, including myself tonight because I had a business engagement and I didn't get here
until 20 after 7. Nobody, I won't say no one, but most of us didn't have a chance to read
this. And this is why we need to be here early . You guys wait until 5 of before the
meeting's supposed to start or 5 minutes after it starts and you get here, it's not a good
precedent, that's all I'm saying. I'm not scolding, I'm not going to be here the whole
month of August, so I'm just telling you that we need to sharpen our attendance times.
Dave Amorose: I think we have an ongoing problem with the contracts in getting them
done in a timely fashion. We did approve and awarded a contract for some sidewalk work
this evening along Frantz Road, and I think the language ought to state that, say the
contractor has depending on how complex the project is that he has "X" number of days for
completion after the signing or awarding of the contract. Some of these contracts seem to
be really dragging and I don't know how you're running that over there, Terry, but I would
hope there's some kind of contract or meeting and some type of required progress reports,
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~
even if it's just pouring of a sidewalk, it seems like we need some follow-up or pushing the
contractors.
Terry Foegler: All the engineering contracts for construction has specified time-frames for
construction. Of course within there, there are certain kinds of factors beyond the
contractor's control which are regulated. Before every project, there's extensive
preconstruction meetings with all the affected parties and numerous meetings during projects
on key projects. The key, I've said before, there are only so many levers we have within
those contracts once they are let, liquidated damages being the main, enforcement technique
has limited askability for public agencies, I'm sure you're familiar with. We can beat, yell,
and scream, and we do a lot of that, we try to stay on top of the projects. I still believe
that the single largest factor that this Council can utilize, the City can utilize, is a
consideration of that fact in the future award of contracts. And we certainly review that
when we consider bids that have come in, has been past performance and I think that's the
best way to insure; because we are getting a lot of repeat people doing similar projects and
those that are doing very good are also finding that they're coming in competitive and doing
jobs in a timely fashion. But that tends to be the biggest single lever we've got. We've
discussed with the City Attorney in the past some of the items that can be used to get
contractors moving but ---. The issue could be, perhaps, that maybe you're not satisfied
with some of the construction periods that are specified in the contracts themselves, but
those are usually based on engineering experience, the design consultant, and very often
negotiation with the contractor themselves. And there tends to be, with the detention basin
as an example, had a very short fuse on it by EP A, 30 days; significantly increased the cost
because of the kind of things they had to do in a short period of time. So there's that cost
trade-off, the value of having it done in a quicker than normal fashion, versus having what
would be considered normal construction periods. But we can certainly look at those
aspects of the contract and, as I've indicated previously, if the City Attorney has some
suggestions in terms of how they could be modified, to stiffen the penalties or tighten those
requirements. But we do meet with the contractors very regularly, and I know Steve Mack
has, at the end of every week, a very good handle on what the status of those projects are.
A. C. Strip: What was the sign-off completion date supposedly on Blazer Parkway? I've
been taking some needling over that, same as, I guess, you have, Dave. Is this as far
behind as people are kidding me about or --?
Terry Foegler: Are you talking about the extension or the widening, there are two separate
projects there?
A. C. Strip: Is one of them a year behind, or approaching a year? That's approaching a
year. We're getting some lack of good will, to put it as politely as I can ---. When will
it be done? Is there a projection now at this point?
??? - no microphone
A. C. Strip: Which contractor is that, why don't we name names?
????: no microphone
A. C. Strip: Savko, that's what I thought it was. But on the other hand, looks like he's
on schedule on Muirfield Connector.
??: no microphone
Mayor Rozanski: no microphone --Have there been changes on Blazer Parkway?
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More discussion.
F ~i
A. C. Strip: The bottom line from my standpoint is, you have to know, we have some
unhappy corporate neighbors and in their eyes, as polite as possible once again, we don't
look good. And we've lost credibility and I'm not sure where the fault lies. I'd like to
know whether it's within our own organization or within the contractor or a combination.
But what's being said behind our backs is very unflattering and it really ruined one of my
weekends because it's not the kind of stuff you want to hear at a cocktail party. I don't like
being needled when there's merit to what I'm hearing.
Tim Hansley: I feel obligated to say what Steve Mack is probably dying to say and that's
that, hopefully most of you remember this, that what staff did on that particular project,
because of Blazer and because we felt strongly that Savko had not given us a good job, we
in a public meeting, recommended not awarding them as low bidder on Muirfield; but
Council strongly overrode that, the action you took was to say, "This is your last chance" .
A. C. Strip: I'm not talking about Muirfield, I'm still talking about Blazer.
Tim Hansley: And we're saying that Blazer is a year behind and Muirfield is a month
behind and the only penalty --
A. C. Strip: And we have some heavy monetary penalties, I believe, on Muirfield Drive.
p ,}
Tim Hansley: No, what you got, you gave them the verbal warning that "if you don't do
well on Muirfield, we won't give you the next one".
Discussion.
J;;"
A. C. Strip: Last question I have which is a follow-up to a short question I had with Tim,
and I think we ought to make a policy decision, staff ought to make a policy decision
whether or not our PIO person is going to be at Council meetings or not. Whatever way
it goes, I'd like to know what the answer is, I don't know how PIO can parry questions,
etc., if she's not here; but if she's not going to be here, is somebody covering it? Is there
a policy?
Tim Hansley: Basically, there's no policy or requirement either of Council as a legislative
policy or administrative policy regarding any staff member. Our informal policy since I've
been here, at least, has been that if you have something on the agenda, normally you're
going to be here to explain or defend that. And generally the rest of staff has been here,
kind of off and on as far as their own schedule dictated. Normally, if I know something's
going to come up and the affected department head can't be here, then normally I either get
briefed or some other backup staff member would be briefed. If some staff member is not
here and something comes out of Roundtable, then clearly I would be representing all of
staff, those that are here and those that are not here, and I would take a note and get back
to them.
A. C. Strip: Maybe I'm alone in the wind on this, if I am, so be it, but it just seems to me
she's the official spokesperson for the City, and is going to be responding on everything
from sewers to baseball fences, and it just seems to me that perhaps part of her duties ought
to include being at Council meetings, for which, of course, she can get compensatory time
off, etc. But I see her being quoted more and more, which is good, by the way. It seems
to me that, unless she can glean all this out of the tape or the minutes which eventually
come out, maybe she ought to be here.
Tim Hansley: I think her track record is probably, since she's been here, she's probably
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.
been at 95% of the meetings so she normally is here. Just like every staff member, they will
not make every single meeting for a variety of reasons but I think her intentions would be
to be here every time when she has something on the agenda, and most of the other time---
....
..
A. C. Strip: I'll go further, I'm saying I wonder if there shouldn't be a policy on it; so it's
not at her discretion but at your discretion, Tim, or --
Tim Hansley: I guess I would object to a policy that required every department head, every
division head to be here every meeting or any specific department or division head to be
here.
A. C. Strip: I'm only talking about one person who is the official spokesman for the City,
and I'm merely saying, the policy might be that it might be at your discretion, but I would
rather have some policy as opposed to no policy, as right now it seems to be at her
discretion. I have no problem if you say at your discretion, she'll be here. But I think it
has to be a policy as to what the spokesman of the City --
Tim Hansley: And normally the way that absence would be covered is, like if she's not
here tonight, the first thing tomorrow morning, she and I would sit down and she'd go over
what happened of significance at the Council meeting last night so that she can get briefed
on that.
Further discussion.
Meeting adjourned 11:45 P.M.
~rnn~
~ .a(1;;)
~. ~,
Cieri of Council /
"..,.........
_r.....t
52